# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/721 "2017-11-11T16:03:54Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > 1. Trump likes non-PC tyrants. > 2. Putin tried to sneak people into Trump’s camp. > 3. Trump can’t believe/admit that his team was composed of idiots that fell for it all. This is the best possible possibility, and it still has fire behind the smoke. And it requires me to believe that Trump was kept entirely in the dark about all of this while it was going on. Which seems comically unlikely. And also, number 2 isn’t “tried”, as the attempts were clearly successful (Manafort, Papadapolous, Flynn and probably others). > [@Monty](#): > > Looks like we can rest easy now and Mueller can go home. Trump himself has announced the result of his own awesome investigation chops: [Putin says he did not meddle in the election](https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-putin-told-didnt-meddle-us-election-110552400.html). > > Good to know, prez, you worthless fuckwit. Meanwhile, the Russians say the topic [never even came up](http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/359893-putin-trump-did-not-bring-up-election-meddling). ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/722 "2017-11-11T16:24:36Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > This is the best possible possibility, and it still has fire behind the smoke. And it requires me to believe that Trump was kept entirely in the dark about all of this while it was going on. Which seems comically unlikely. And also, number 2 isn’t “tried”, as the attempts were clearly successful (Manafort, Papadapolous, Flynn and probably others). I’ve been feeling like I should quote this bit from [The Big Con](https://www.amazon.com/Big-Story-Confidence-Man/dp/0385495382) for a while now: _A confidence man prospers only because of the fundamental dishonesty of his victim. First, he inspires a belief in his own integrity. Second, he brings into play powerful and well-nigh irresistible forces to excite the cupidity of the mark. Then he allows the victim to make large sums of money by means of dealings which are explained to him as being dishonest - and hence a “sure thing.” As the lust for large and easy profits is fanned into a hot flame, the mark puts all his scruples behind him. He closes out his bank account, liquidates his property, borrows from his friends, embezzles from his employer or his clients. In the mad frenzy of cheating someone else, he is unaware of the fact that he is the real victim, carefully selected and fatted for the kill. Thus arises the trite but none the less sage maxim: “You can’t cheat an honest man.”_ So while, fundamentally, it may be that the Trump campaign didn’t set out to commit illegal acts, the fact that the Russians got in as close as they did is pretty well evidence on its own that Trump and his people are a pack of crooks. Otherwise, they simply wouldn’t have bit. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/723 "2017-11-11T16:29:33Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Why did Trump announce that he would be releasing the emails? > > While a smoking gun is always nice, at some point you have to run the odds on all the weak evidence. If each piece of evidence is only 1 chance in 5 chance of being the worst case, but you have 20 pieces of evidence, then the odds are just as good as a smoking gun. What gets me is that we have everything but the smoking gun. We have the results of collusion in the form of Russia releasing emails and targeting voters and Trump trying (somewhat unsuccessfully so far) to ease sanctions. We have Trumpsters covering up their acts, undermining the Russia investigation and doing everything they can to make people believe it didn’t happen. Lie on top of lie on top of lie. All that we need for a smoking gun would be to find out that one American whispered to a Russian “Let’s do it. You help us with Clinton, we’ll help you with sanctions.” If someone whispered that to me or you, we’d have a million questions. We’d propose meetings and agreements as to what exactly that meant. But for the Trump campaign and Russia, it could be done during a handshake and we may never find out about it. Why? Because they already had numerous secret meetings with Russia about this very thing. We may never find proof of that agreement. It’s like going outside and seeing a bridge, then digging up the plans for the bridge, but we’re unable to say the bridge was ever built unless we can find the paper where the mayor signed off on it. It’s frustrating for law and order types, but I imagine it must be incredibly tense for Trump supporters. They have to claim daily that that bridge that we’re looking at isn’t really there while secretly hoping that the signature is never found. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/724 "2017-11-11T16:42:12Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > What gets me is that we have everything but the smoking gun. We have the results of collusion in the form of Russia releasing emails and targeting voters and Trump trying (somewhat unsuccessfully so far) to ease sanctions. We have Trumpsters covering up their acts, undermining the Russia investigation and doing everything they can to make people believe it didn’t happen. Lie on top of lie on top of lie. > > All that we need for a smoking gun would be to find out that one American whispered to a Russian “Let’s do it. You help us with Clinton, we’ll help you with sanctions.” > > If someone whispered that to me or you, we’d have a million questions. We’d propose meetings and agreements as to what exactly that meant. But for the Trump campaign and Russia, it could be done during a handshake and we may never find out about it. Why? Because they already had numerous secret meetings with Russia about this very thing. > > We may never find proof of that agreement. It’s like going outside and seeing a bridge, then digging up the plans for the bridge, but we’re unable to say the bridge was ever built unless we can find the paper where the mayor signed off on it. > > It’s frustrating for law and order types, but I imagine it must be incredibly tense for Trump supporters. They have to claim daily that that bridge that we’re looking at isn’t really there while secretly hoping that the signature is never found. Hell, you don’t even need to say anything sometimes. If you know what the other guy wants and you know that he knows what you want, you can both simply collude without ever having spoken a word. Say that I’m the President and I want to bring peace to the Middle East. My solution to this is to choose one side to win and support them in their conquest of the rest of the area. In exchange, though, I want to preserve Israel. All I have to do is give a speech about a unified Arabian nation and how it would be so wonderful, even if there would be some initial cost. But America would support that cost. And then I fly to Israel and do a tour of all the special sites, give another speech about how important the history of the Jewish people is to the Abrahamic religions, etc. After something like that, the various powers in the Middle East will each make some small moves, seeing if they’re the chosen one, and then find out when the US supports one of them. Positive consent is nice and all, but most of humanity was created through a process of flirting, where each person keeps upping the ante. It’s a sufficient method for many purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/725 "2017-11-11T16:43:13Z")
That all said, it would be interesting to run the probabilities. Maybe I’ll start a thread later and have people throw in some numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/726 "2017-11-11T20:22:09Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > That is just incredibly fucked up. US president siding with foreign murderous dictator over career civil servants. Ted Lieu is [calling Trump a liar](http://thehill.com/homenews/house/359935-dem-trump-lying-about-russias-role-in-election). \*“I have seen the classified information on Russian hacking. @realDonaldTrump has received classified briefings. I can tell you that @POTUS is LYING," Lieu wrote on Twitter. "Trump knows the Kremlin hacked America last year,” Lieu added, quoting a report from The New York Times that details Trump’s Saturday comments about Russian President Vladimir Putin.\* ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/727 "2017-11-11T20:32:40Z")
Everybody knows he’s lying. That is pretty much all he does. Where is any accountability? ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/728 "2017-11-11T20:52:58Z")
> [@steatopygia](#): > > Everybody knows he’s lying. That is pretty much all he does. > Where is any accountability? It’s not lying if he really believes it. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/729 "2017-11-11T20:57:29Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > It’s not lying if he really believes it. I’m just wondering what he does during these classified briefings when they are telling him these things. Does he just nod his head and agree with them at the time or does he actively disagree with them? ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/730 "2017-11-11T21:06:01Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Ted Lieu is [calling Trump a liar](http://thehill.com/homenews/house/359935-dem-trump-lying-about-russias-role-in-election). > > \*“I have seen the classified information on Russian hacking. @realDonaldTrump has received classified briefings. I can tell you that @POTUS is LYING," Lieu wrote on Twitter. > > "Trump knows the Kremlin hacked America last year,” Lieu added, quoting a report from The New York Times that details Trump’s Saturday comments about Russian President Vladimir Putin.\* I’m glad the guy is calling it LYING, not saying something like, “disseminating false information,” “making statements that fall somewhat short of the truth,” and other bullshit from the Thesaurus of Euphemisms. > [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > I’m just wondering what he does during these classified briefings when they are telling him these things. Does he just nod his head and agree with them at the time or does he actively disagree with them? I’m guessing he nods his head while not understanding one fucking thing they’re saying. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/731 "2017-11-11T21:07:01Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > It’s not lying if he really believes it. I don’t know if he believes it or not. But that brings up a theory of mine. Republican voters act on what they _believe_, not necessarily what is _true_. They _believe_ there are hundreds of thousands of “welfare queens”, so they vote against benefits. They _believe_ that we can’t afford universal healthcare, so they vote against it. They \*believe \*that global warming is a hoax, so they vote against it. They _believe_ that anyone calling themselves a Christian is honest, so they vote for them. And the most recent belief, that Trump cares for anything but himself. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/732 "2017-11-11T21:23:44Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > I have to remember that assuming for the moment that Trump has skeletons in his closet, he knows the extent of the shitstorm that is bearing down on him. His only play is to try to deligitimize the bringers of that shitstorm in hopes of casting doubt on it with as many people as possible. He will attempt to bring down the country rather than admit defeat. To have skeletons in one’s closet, one has to be ashamed of those skeletons to the point one hides them in a closet. That certainly is not Trump. No doubt his favorite game is dominos. He really does have another move, though. When corrected, he simply ignores the correction and continues with his illegal and immoral behavior. Look at his illegal renting policy and his Muslim ban. Combine his lack of shame and his two pathetic moves and that’s what drives his destruction of the country. I don’t think he even realizes that other people, even a country, can be harmed. That would require the self-centered bastard to actually realize other people are people. He only cares if they are lavishing praise on him. Just look at how Xi played him. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/733 "2017-11-11T21:31:36Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I’m glad the guy is calling it LYING, not saying something like, “disseminating false information,” “making statements that fall somewhat short of the truth,” and other bullshit from the **Thesaurus of Euphemisms**. > I’m guessing he nods his head while not understanding one fucking thing they’re saying. Don’t you mean The Big Book Of Alternate Meanings? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/734 "2017-11-11T21:34:28Z")
> [@steatopygia](#): > > They _believe_ that anyone calling themselves a Christian is honest, so they vote for them. Unless the Christian happen to be a Democrat who is Black and in elected office. There’s no way those Reoublicans will believe that. It doesn’t fit their narrative. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/735 "2017-11-11T22:24:51Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Again, if I could just hear one reasonable non-collusion explanation that explains all of the available data, including Trump’s undying allegiance to Putin and no one else, I might consider that there was some possibility that there is no fire behind this smoke. Easy. As Trump and his supporters say, Lugenpresse. The press is making stuff up because they’re in the bag for Hillary (you can tell it’s their theory because they refer to Sec’y Clinton by her first name). Trump isn’t being loyal to Putin, they just agree with each other because they’re both strong, effective leaders. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/736 "2017-11-11T23:23:29Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > I’m just wondering what he does during these classified briefings when they are telling him these things. Does he just nod his head and agree with them at the time or does he actively disagree with them? Those are just deep state Obama holdovers colluding with the democrats to keep America from being great again. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/737 "2017-11-12T05:13:44Z")
Mueller is building his case on multiple fronts: collusion, obstruction, tax evasion, etc. It doesn’t matter which on sticks. Me, I’m betting on serious tax evasion/laundering will be the one. But hell, nothing to say it can’t be all three. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/738 "2017-11-12T07:51:21Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > It’s not lying if he really believes it. Yes it is; it’s just compounded by stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![soonerblue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/soonerblue/32/3302_2.png) [@soonerblue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soonerblue)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/739 "2017-11-12T11:58:24Z")
Does anyone else think that Mueller is waiting for Trump to return from his Asia trip before he drops the next big shoe? Because, you know, it wouldn’t look patriotic to cause a stink when the president is out representin’ America. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/740 "2017-11-12T12:09:32Z")
> [@soonerblue](#): > > Does anyone else think that Mueller is waiting for Trump to return from his Asia trip before he drops the next big shoe? Because, you know, it wouldn’t look patriotic to cause a stink when the president is out representin’ America. I was thinking that, not because of the political optics, but because of the danger that he would be more likely to try launching WWIII if he got in the mood to throw a tantrum while overseas. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=38)