# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 370
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2018, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7383 "2018-11-06T17:11:01Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I would think that if the Dems take Congress (likely, but still fingers crossed), then if Mueller is fired, they could start their own Congressional investigation and as a first step subpoena all FBI documents related to Muller’s investigation. I think there are a lot of things they could do, and I agree that’s one of them. I also believe that Mueller himself will have taken strategic steps to ensure the results of his investigation will be made public one way or another. There’s just no way Mueller and his team worked as hard and long as they have and not find a mechanism to inform the American people of their results. He has the approval of roughly 60% of Americans. People want to know about this, and he’ll find a way to tell them. We’re so far past the “norms” that it’s hard to guess how he might do it, but I’m confident he will. The strategy I currently think could work is an overwhelming show of strength, such as executing on multiple indictments simultaneously soon after the mid-terms – so many that for Trump to attempt to pardon them all would be such obvious pure obstruction that even Republicans, assuming they remain in control of the Senate, would have to act. I believe Mueller will hold back some dual-jurisdiction charges in case Trump does attempt the pardon route. **kaylasdad99** is correct so far as I understand, that only cases already tried by the Feds would be subject to _Gamble_. More likely, Trump is going to fire Sessions by Wednesday, install Noel Francisco as acting AG, who will immediately take steps to curb Mueller. I don’t think he will fire him. I think he will try to curtail his funding and hollow out other US Attorneys’ offices in an effort to stop federal prosecutions. I also believe that if we think we’ve seen chaos up to now, we ain’t seen nuttin’ yet. Things are going to turn _really_ ugly after today, no matter the outcome of the mid-term election. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2018, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7384 "2018-11-06T17:41:52Z")
The thing is, IMO, people should be asking themselves: how far am I willing to go to preserve the democratic ideals of the United States? If we wake up tomorrow and every election result that was certified showed that the GOP won, what would you do? Would you go to work? Would you try and have a normal day? Would you accept it? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2018, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7385 "2018-11-06T17:50:42Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > …If we wake up tomorrow and every election result that was certified showed that the GOP won, what would you do? Would you go to work? Would you try and have a normal day? Would you accept it? I don’t see much choice. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2018, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7386 "2018-11-06T17:52:39Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > The thing is, IMO, people should be asking themselves: how far am I willing to go to preserve the democratic ideals of the United States? > > If we wake up tomorrow and every election result that was certified showed that the GOP won, what would you do? Would you go to work? Would you try and have a normal day? Would you accept it? And our other option would be…? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7387 "2018-11-06T17:57:01Z")
Don’t go to work; go to the courthouse and stage a sit-in protest denouncing the election results? Stay home, call friends and stage a protest on a street corner? Do what you can to shut down the mechanisms being used to fraudulently claim an electoral win? But hey, if the country isn’t very important, I can see where you’d place it low on your priority list, even if that means someone else is just gonna take what rightfully belongs to you. I’m just saying that IMO this is something that people should think about _now_. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7388 "2018-11-06T18:09:29Z")
To be honest, I’d be far more concerned about such a result if prominent Republicans (besides the dipshit in the Oval Office) were out proclaiming they expect to win. They’re not. They’re either hedging their comments or staying silent. I think there is more quiet opposition to Trump even within his own caucus than he realizes. They may not contradict him publicly, but they don’t appear to be helping him that much, either. If we were being primed by with a concerted effort to expect a GOP sweep, that would scare me. But in answer to your question, **Snowboarder Bo** , I do think there would be a significant response by citizens. I’d be among 'em, in the streets. As much as the media wants to pretend this is a horse race, it honestly doesn’t look like one. If Democrats vote as we expect them to, and if only 10% of Republicans cross over and 60% of independents break toward Dems… well, that’s a blow out. As hard as Republicans could work to game the vote, it would be almost impossible to do. That’s why they’re doing dumb things like overtly racist robocalls and why Trump sounds ever more unhinged at his rallies. One step at a time, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2018, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7389 "2018-11-06T18:22:54Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > The Fifth Amendment protects you from providing testimony that would incriminate yourself. But if you’re pardoned, you are no longer in jeopardy of being incriminated for those crimes. So if you are subpoenaed to testify, you can’t plead the fifth for that reason. If you do, you can be held in contempt of Congress or contempt of court as the case may be. But is that contempt not also pardonable? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2018, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7390 "2018-11-06T18:29:55Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > But is that contempt not also pardonable? Not to my knowledge. Pardons apply to criminal charges. Contempt isn’t criminal, it’s procedural. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2018, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7391 "2018-11-06T18:29:58Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > But is that contempt not also pardonable? At some point in this process the pardoning would be deemed obstruction of justice. I’m just not sure how long that would take. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2018, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7392 "2018-11-06T18:30:30Z")
Criminal contempt, possibly. Civil contempt no. And civil contempt can still put your ass in jail until you decide to cooperate. ---
**Author:** ![tripthicket](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripthicket/32/297_2.png) [@tripthicket](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tripthicket)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2018, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7393 "2018-11-06T18:31:09Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2018, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7394 "2018-11-06T19:30:01Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Correct me if I’m wrong, but if state prosecutions precede federal prosecutions, any state convictions can’t get pardoned away by the America-hating Fuckstick, regardless of how _Gamble_ is decided, right? Not if \*Gamble \*goes Trump’s way. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2018, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7395 "2018-11-06T20:06:57Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Not if \*Gamble \*goes Trump’s way. I think that’s a misstatement, although certainly an understandable one considering the confusion around _Gamble_. It doesn’t affect state prosecutions and/or convictions. It would preclude a state from prosecuting a defendant on the basis of the same criminal charges arising from the same set of facts. Examples: 1. Manafort convicted by state charges. _Gamble_ doesn’t apply. 2. Manafort convicted by federal charges, then pardoned and the state brings charges for the same incident. _Gamble_ applies, and Manafort could not be retried by the state. 3. Manafort convicted by federal charges, then pardoned. A state brings different charges that are similar but not based on the same incident (think money laundering). _Gamble_ does not apply. It will force prosecutors to be more creative in the federal courts, but I’m not sure _Gamble_ will be upended – no matter what Orrin Hatch wants. [Here’s a good summary](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/09/trump-pardon-orrin-hatch-supreme-court/571285/). (The Atlantic) Disclaimer: IANAL. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2018, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7396 "2018-11-06T22:49:12Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Do what you can to shut down the mechanisms being used to fraudulently claim an electoral win? I took “every election result that was certified showed that the GOP won” to mean that it _wasn’t_ fraudulent. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2018, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7397 "2018-11-07T17:00:46Z")
Looks like there could be a Don Jr indictment soon. > **[Donald Trump Jr. Expecting to Be Indicted by Mueller Soon](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/11/donald-trump-jr-expecting-to-be-indicted-by-mueller-soon.html)** > > Two reports indicate a perjury charge is coming soon. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2018, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7398 "2018-11-07T17:14:24Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Looks like there could be a Don Jr indictment soon. > > [Donald Trump Jr. Expecting to be Indicted by Mueller Soon](http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/11/donald-trump-jr-expecting-to-be-indicted-by-mueller-soon.html) Oh please oh please oh please! Seeing this has brightened my morning after the pain of seeing the Republicans somehow _gain_ seats in the Senate. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2018, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7399 "2018-11-07T17:21:41Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Correct me if I’m wrong, but if state prosecutions precede federal prosecutions, any state convictions can’t get pardoned away by the America-hating Fuckstick, regardless of how _Gamble_ is decided, right? I hope that’s how it would be, but then the risk is, they might feel pressured to rush the investigations and trials. That could cause critical mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2018, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7400 "2018-11-07T17:24:33Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I try to publish something every morning. Occasionally publication is delayed until lunchtime, after I’ve had coffee or a bran muffin. Always good to meet a colleague working in the same medium. That was … beautiful. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2018, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7401 "2018-11-07T17:34:11Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I would think that if the Dems take Congress (likely, but still fingers crossed), then if Mueller is fired, they could start their own Congressional investigation and as a first step subpoena all FBI documents related to Muller’s investigation. Nunez and Rohrbacher are now GONE… two huge roadblocks to a REAL investigation. I think THEY should be investigated too. For corruption, obstruction, treason, conspiracy, fraud, false imprisionment of people seeking refugee status, kidnapping, anything and everything that could possibly stick. Look into their “finances”. Look for kompromat. Then go after McConnell, who has been blocking any investigations ever since Obama tried to start a bi-partisan one into Russian meddling. Not just them of course, but it’s a nice start. And of course, Trump himself. For all the above, “self dealing”, tax fraud, tax evasion, and violation of the Emoluments clause. This is not a time for “bi-partisanship”, conciliation, or playing nice. This is the time to make a statement and make an example. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2018, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7402 "2018-11-07T17:36:13Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Looks like there could be a Don Jr indictment soon. > > [Donald Trump Jr. Expecting to be Indicted by Mueller Soon](http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/11/donald-trump-jr-expecting-to-be-indicted-by-mueller-soon.html) That would be a nice START. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=369) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=371)