# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 375
**Author:** ![Quint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/76d3ee/32.png) [@Quint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quint)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2018, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7483 "2018-11-08T07:31:01Z")
Jesus wept. Two pages of absolute drivel after the AG in charge of the investigation “resigns”. I actually have this thread bookmarked so as to have easy access to information on the Mueller Investigation and its results and outcomes. Please keep this thread relatively noise free for the social media illiterate amongst us!!! For god’s sake stop the self-congratulating bullshit and responses to same… ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2018, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7484 "2018-11-08T09:35:09Z")
In terms of more specific advice for what people here can do, I would say that the key areas of danger are that Trump paints the new House Ethics, Justice, and Intelligence committees as lying conmen and subsequently sets his new DOJ on them, looking for any crimes to charge them with. Pelosi, or whoever ends up as the new Speaker of the House, needs to select people of unimpeachable history and trustworthiness. The DNC needs to hire some mudslingers to investigate their own and see who withstands the most scrutiny. I’d recommend writing that message and hoping that someone gets through to her. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2018, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7485 "2018-11-08T11:37:01Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > **asahi** : “Guys! _Guys_!! Validate me, tell me I was right all along!! I am the _only one_ who understands the dangers to our country posed by Trump and Republicans!! Only meeeeeee, me, me _meeeeeee_!!! I’ve never been wrong about _anything_!!!” > > You have more in common with Trump than you think. Will you morons just put the troll on Ignore already and get back to speculating over juicy indictment details? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2018, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7486 "2018-11-08T14:03:12Z")
I hope it’s not untoward of me to drop in with a drive-by “Fuck Bricker,” who is currently quivering with glee at recounting the legal justification for his boy Donald to subvert justice. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7487 "2018-11-09T00:46:31Z")
A temporary talking-off-of-the-ledge for those fearing the subversion of Mueller’s investigation. For now, you know, but that’s better than a sharp stick somewhere. > **[Don't freak out over Jeff Sessions' departure — at least not yet ](https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-perspec-sessions-jeff-resigned-trump-russia-investigation-probe-panic-1109-story.html)** > > Attorney General Jeff Sessions' resignation will not end the Russia investigation regarding President Donald Trump's climb to the White House. A not long opinion piece to bring a deep breath of sanity to a fucked up situation. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7488 "2018-11-09T00:56:30Z")
In case anyone is wondering… [ **What Would Actually Happen if Trump Refused a Subpoena?** _If the president does not want to testify in Robert Mueller’s investigation, there simply is no realistic way for the courts to physically force him to do so._](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/05/trump-mueller-russia-subpoena/560981/) > [@](#): > > Let’s say, however, that Trump receives a subpoena and fights it to the Supreme Court. And let’s say that, in the end, the Court sides with the special counsel and tells Trump he has to appear before the grand jury. > > What if the president just says “no”? > > If a normal citizen were to do that—to refuse to testify in response to a legitimate order—the answer would be relatively easy: The prosecutor would go to court, show the judge the valid subpoena and the refusal, and ask the judge to find the person in contempt of court. > > There are, notably, two flavors of contempt of court: civil and criminal. Civil contempt is nothing more, nor less, than an effort to compel a witness to appear as ordered. Typically, a witness who defies a subpoena is arrested on a civil-contempt citation and put in jail. They then remain there until they change their mind and testify, or until the investigation ends and the grand jury that summoned them shuts down. Either way, whether they change their mind—what’s called “purging yourself” of contempt—or whether the investigation concludes, the term of imprisonment is time-limited. Indeed, the person in contempt, sometimes called a contemnor, actually holds the keys to their prison. > > By contrast, criminal contempt is a separate criminal offense, and the process for proving it is much like that of any other crime. The prosecutor can decide to charge the contemnor with the criminal charge of contempt and try to prove the case in court beyond a reasonable doubt. If convicted, the defendant can be sentenced to a term of years and doesn’t have a key to his or her jail cell. > > … > > A president refusing an order would be uncharted territory. > > Presumably, the court that issued the subpoena would find the president in civil contempt, just as it would any other citizen. But after that … that’s where it gets interesting. > > An ordinary American would go to jail. Some contemnors voluntarily show up for incarceration because they are trying to make a point; for example, that’s the typical practice for a news reporter who goes to jail to protect a source. > > But for contemnors who don’t show up voluntarily, the court sends the U.S. Marshals Service out to arrest them and bring them to jail in handcuffs. It’s not a pleasant experience, but it’s common enough—arrest warrants are executed every day around the country. > > However, that’s just not going to happen to a president who refuses to testify. > … There’s more but that’s the gist. Interesting read. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7489 "2018-11-09T01:13:48Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > In case anyone is wondering… > > [ **What Would Actually Happen if Trump Refused a Subpoena?** > _If the president does not want to testify in Robert Mueller’s investigation, there simply is no realistic way for the courts to physically force him to do so._](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/05/trump-mueller-russia-subpoena/560981/) > > There’s more but that’s the gist. Interesting read. Better get ready for it now, aye: Trump’s self-interest is much greater than his interest in following the law or in “doing what is right”. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7490 "2018-11-09T03:21:33Z")
> [@Defensive\_Indifference](#): > > Yeah, I’d assumed it was at 12, but I think they’re all at 5:00 local time. After I posted I got an email from the local organizers giving the start time. Our event was (as all the others I’ve attended) respectful, upbeat and decently attended, especially considering the short notice and that it was very cold for our part of the world. I’d estimate a crowd size of about 300. Favorite sign: “Beneath contempt but not above the law.” We had good speakers, including a constitutional scholar who made a compelling argument that Whitaker is not lawfully appointed, and someone representing Senator Ron Wyden’s office. I’m glad I went, despite adversities of a barking knee and a long drive. How was yours? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7491 "2018-11-09T11:13:03Z")
Let’s not forget that the White House and Vice President’s office rejected Senate subpoenas back in 2007 and got away with it. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7492 "2018-11-09T17:10:55Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Better get ready for it now, aye: Trump’s self-interest is much greater than his interest in following the law or in “doing what is right”. And that’s the wild card here… it’s been suggested several times that Trump \*wants \* to testify, to show that he’s better than Mueller and that he can beat him. Yeah, it’d be stupid, and he’d be advised against it, but when has that ever stopped him? ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7493 "2018-11-09T17:14:31Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > And that’s the wild card here… it’s been suggested several times that Trump \*wants \* to testify, to show that he’s better than Mueller and that he can beat him. Yeah, it’d be stupid, and he’d be advised against it, but when has that ever stopped him? We only have to remind him that only a pussy wouldn’t want to testify. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7494 "2018-11-09T17:35:11Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > And that’s the wild card here… it’s been suggested several times that Trump \*wants \* to testify, to show that he’s better than Mueller and that he can beat him. Yeah, it’d be stupid, and he’d be advised against it, but when has that ever stopped him? He’ll just tell Mueller or the Judge that they ask a lot of stupid questions. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7495 "2018-11-09T17:36:13Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > And that’s the wild card here… it’s been suggested several times that Trump \*wants \* to testify, to show that he’s better than Mueller and that he can beat him. Yeah, it’d be stupid, and he’d be advised against it, but when has that ever stopped him? > [@Mollie\_Magill](#): > > We only have to remind him that only a pussy wouldn’t want to testify. Yes, yes, please. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7496 "2018-11-09T18:23:12Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > He’ll just tell Mueller or the Judge that they ask a lot of stupid questions. Probably complain about “racist” questions too. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7497 "2018-11-09T19:15:00Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Probably complain about “racist” questions too. Trump: "You’re being very, very unfair to me. So unfair! You’re the racists! You’re the racists! You hate orange people! It’s true! Everyone says so. You discriminate against us. You have no idea, no idea how orange people have suffered. You and your FAKE NEWS! It’s all fake! FAKE!!! I have videos to prove it. Just like I have pictures of Mueller kissing Comey. It’s disgraceful! If you just reported how great I am, and I’m the greatest President in the history of this country, and, to be honest, probably the world in all of recorded history, there wouldn’t be any violence in this country. But you have to be dishonest. So dishonest. So unfair! We just won the biggest midterm election in the history of this country. But you won’t report that! So unfair! It’s like my friend Alex Jones tells me. Violence and gay frogs in this country are all your fault for not telling the American people how great I am, and they know I’m the greatest. Everyone knows that. Everyone agrees with me. But you won’t tell them that. That’s why there are violence and gay frogs. There wouldn’t be if you just told the truth about how great I am! And you’re stupid, so low IQ. Everybody knows orange people have the highest IQs and best words. Everybody says so. You’re the racists! You won’t tell me how great I am. So unfair!!! I have the best brain." ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7498 "2018-11-09T19:25:53Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Our event was (as all the others I’ve attended) respectful, upbeat and decently attended, especially considering the short notice and that it was very cold for our part of the world. I’d estimate a crowd size of about 300. > > Favorite sign: “Beneath contempt but not above the law.” > > We had good speakers, including a constitutional scholar who made a compelling argument that Whitaker is not lawfully appointed, and someone representing Senator Ron Wyden’s office. > > I’m glad I went, despite adversities of a barking knee and a long drive. > > How was yours? About 150 in this small plaza in downtown San Rafael (a small city in Marin county). If it had been later, I would’ve gone to the one in SF instead but this was easier to get to from my work and given the size of the plaza, the crowd filled it up–not bad given it was literally organized less than 24 hours before. Some chanting, a PA system with a perfectly fine speaker, and quite a few signs that people must’ve thrown together at the last minute. I imagine if DT escalates (or accelerates) things, there will be a much larger, more organized one here (probably both in SF and Oakland) and I’ll probably attend that one, too. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7499 "2018-11-09T20:05:59Z")
Instead of starting a whole nother thread, let me ask you smart guys in this one: Is there any way to interpret the firing of Sessions as an innocent, justifiable move? Because to me it screams, “Trump is guilty.” Guilty of what? Not sure, but there must be a there there to take such an extraordinary step. Any reason I can’t in all seriousness start referring to President Crook? What do we make of his supporters now? ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7500 "2018-11-09T20:15:38Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Instead of starting a whole nother thread, let me ask you smart guys in this one: Is there any way to interpret the firing of Sessions as an innocent, justifiable move? Because to me it screams, “Trump is guilty.” Guilty of what? Not sure, but there must be a there there to take such an extraordinary step. > > Any reason I can’t in all seriousness start referring to President Crook? What do we make of his supporters now? If you’ve followed this thread like me, I think there can be no doubt that Trumpelstiltskin broke more laws than you can count on a centipede’s feet. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7501 "2018-11-09T20:20:31Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Instead of starting a whole nother thread, let me ask you smart guys in this one: Is there any way to interpret the firing of Sessions as an innocent, justifiable move? Because to me it screams, “Trump is guilty.” Guilty of what? Not sure, but there must be a there there to take such an extraordinary step. > > Any reason I can’t in all seriousness start referring to President Crook? What do we make of his supporters now? The only criticism Trump has ever had for Sessions is that Sessions isn’t protecting him from investigation. This is 100% about shutting down investigation into Trump. Now, why would Trump want to shut down an investigation? I’ll leave that as an exercise to the reader. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7502 "2018-11-09T20:24:11Z")
> [@MovieMogul](#): > > About 150 in this small plaza in downtown San Rafael (a small city in Marin county). If it had been later, I would’ve gone to the one in SF instead but this was easier to get to from my work and given the size of the plaza, the crowd filled it up–not bad given it was literally organized less than 24 hours before. Some chanting, a PA system with a perfectly fine speaker, and quite a few signs that people must’ve thrown together at the last minute. > > I imagine if DT escalates (or accelerates) things, there will be a much larger, more organized one here (probably both in SF and Oakland) and I’ll probably attend that one, too. Thanks. I appreciate your story. This is so important! I’ll be attending future protests, too. > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Instead of starting a whole nother thread, let me ask you smart guys in this one: Is there any way to interpret the firing of Sessions as an innocent, justifiable move? Because to me it screams, “Trump is guilty.” Guilty of what? Not sure, but there must be a there there to take such an extraordinary step. > > Any reason I can’t in all seriousness start referring to President Crook? What do we make of his supporters now? [This](https://investigaterussia.org/timelines/everything-we-know-about-russia-and-president-trump) timeline is the most comprehensive compendium I’ve found that lays out the case against Trump and his minions. I don’t know a single honest broker who can review it and have any reasonable defense to Trump’s involvement with the Russians. I encourage you to spend even just an hour reviewing it. If you read the whole thing, it will take you quite a few hours, but it’s time well spent. No, there is no way to interpret the firing of Sessions as an innocent, justifiable move. Yes, he is President Crook. There is simply no other reasonable conclusion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=374) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=376)