# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 386
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7703 "2018-11-27T01:17:13Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > He’s in worse shape than if he had just pleaded guilty and didn’t cooperate. He gets sentenced, and the deal is invalidated. The judge can take his lying into account in sentencing. > > It likely means he expects a pardon. Or he expected to be murdered by Putin if he said anything, and figured he’d gamble that he could creatively lie to earn the reduced sentence while avoiding Putin’s wrath. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7704 "2018-11-27T01:19:55Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Or he expected to be murdered by Putin if he said anything, and figured he’d gamble that he could creatively lie to earn the reduced sentence while avoiding Putin’s wrath. I think you’ve nailed it, Rat. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7705 "2018-11-27T01:28:38Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > …If they knew for sure they could get and keep President Pence, they’d have shanked Trump long ago. But President Pelosi… that’s a bridge too far for any Republican, Trumpian or otherwise. > > Could happen, though. 😃 Well if Trump along is impeached by the House then all Pence has to ensure the Senate removes him is to start whispering to GOP Senators that he’ll resign otherwise and then they’ll be a septuagenarian junk-food addict’s heartbeat away from President Pelosi (no way in Hell Trump is able to get a replacement VP thru the House). ---
**Author:** ![slumtrimpet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@slumtrimpet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slumtrimpet)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7706 "2018-11-27T01:31:07Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I think you’ve nailed it, Rat. And if that’s the case then Mueller knows all the things that Manafort lied about ('cause how else would he know that Manafort lied) and that Putin might not want Mueller to know. Ima starting to feel just a little happy 😃 ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7707 "2018-11-27T01:36:09Z")
Marcy Wheeler’s analysis is interesting. [Mueller just guaranteed he can issue a public report](https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/11/26/manafort-tests-the-theory-of-an-unpardonable-plea/) > [@emptywheel](#): > > But Mueller’s team appears to have no doubt that Manafort was lying to them. That means they didn’t really need his testimony, at all. It also means they had no need to keep secrets — they could keep giving Manafort the impression that he was pulling a fast one over the prosecutors, all while reporting misleading information to Trump. > > And that “detailed sentencing submission … sett[ing] forth the nature of the defendant’s crimes and lies” that Mueller mentions in the report? > > There’s your Mueller report, which will be provided in a form that Matt Whitaker won’t be able to suppress. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7708 "2018-11-27T01:38:40Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Or expectation that you won’t be caught. These guys have outsized egos and are convinced in their ability to pull the wool over Mueller’s eyes, to their own detriment. Reminds me of the famed [“smartest guys in the room”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron) from a while back. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7709 "2018-11-27T01:43:23Z")
> [@slumtrimpet](#): > > And if that’s the case then Mueller knows all the things that Manafort lied about ('cause how else would he know that Manafort lied) and that Putin might not want Mueller to know. > > Ima starting to feel just a little happy 😃 I doubt Putin gives a flying fuck what happens to Trump or Manafort at this point. Or cares what Mueller knows. And it’s not like he’s going to feel any real pain if trump is thrown in prison. He’s got the greatest show on earth unfolding with clowns and elephants running around and he no doubt loves it. ---
**Author:** ![slumtrimpet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@slumtrimpet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slumtrimpet)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7710 "2018-11-27T01:57:42Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > I doubt Putin gives a flying fuck what happens to Trump or Manafort at this point. Or cares what Mueller knows. And it’s not like he’s going to feel any real pain if trump is thrown in prison. > > He’s got the greatest show on earth unfolding with clowns and elephants running around and he no doubt loves it. Yes, on one level he’s cackling gleefully while watching the USA show. But on the other hand, he’s going to be in deep shit with his oligarch supporters who are not going to be able to get their hands on all the money that’s been tied up in sanctions/Magnitsky Act stuff if Mueller’s report sinks The Nubbin and his crowd. I think Putin might have a lot more riding on the success of the Republican shitshow then we realize. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7711 "2018-11-27T02:04:44Z")
> [@slumtrimpet](#): > > Yes, on one level he’s cackling gleefully while watching the USA show. > But on the other hand, he’s going to be in deep shit with his oligarch supporters who are not going to be able to get their hands on all the money that’s been tied up in sanctions/Magnitsky Act stuff if Mueller’s report sinks The Nubbin and his crowd. > **I think Putin might have a lot more riding on the success of the Republican shitshow then we realize.** I completely agree. They’re also much more intertwined with the Republican shitshow than most realize (NRA, various Congress members, etc.). And those sanctions, if Mueller does his job as well as I expect him to, are going to get a lot more punitive soon. I think that’s why [Putin is making his moves now](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-russia/ukraine-introduces-martial-law-citing-threat-of-russian-invasion-idUSKCN1NV0N1). (Reuters) > [@](#): > > Ukraine on Monday imposed martial law for 30 days in parts of the country most vulnerable to an attack from Russia after President Petro Poroshenko warned of the “extremely serious” threat of a land invasion. **jasg** , another terrific link. Thanks for sharing it. I think what is outlined by **emptywheel** is exactly the sort of tactic that Mueller would employ. I’ve never doubted the fruits of his labor would come before the American public, one way or another. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7712 "2018-11-27T02:06:07Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Reminds me of the famed [“smartest guys in the room”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron) from a while back. I’ve seen Trumpsters claim that Donald Trump is always the smartest guy in the room. As with most cases of psychological projection (either by Trump himself or his supporters), the opposite is most likely true and Trump’s the dumbest, with maybe the exception being if his sons are in the room with him. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7713 "2018-11-27T02:39:59Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > **jasg** , another terrific link. Thanks for sharing it. I think what is outlined by **emptywheel** is exactly the sort of tactic that Mueller would employ. I’ve never doubted the fruits of his labor would come before the American public, one way or another. Let’s not forget that for some reason, the [joint defense agreement](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-giuliani-idUSKCN1MW2U8) was still active after Manafort pleaded guilty. So, Manafort could have been communicating stuff back to Trump that went into his take-home-test so they both would agree. But in the meantime Mueller delayed this filing until he got Trump’s answers and he seems kind of sure that Manafort lied… The sentencing report could be very, very interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7714 "2018-11-27T03:01:02Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > Let’s not forget that for some reason, the [joint defense agreement](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-giuliani-idUSKCN1MW2U8) was still active after Manafort pleaded guilty. **So, Manafort could have been communicating stuff back to Trump that went into his take-home-test so they both would agree.** > > But in the meantime Mueller delayed this filing until he got Trump’s answers and he seems kind of sure that Manafort lied… > > The sentencing report could be very, very interesting. I found that bit to be the most intriguing part of the supposition put forth in your link. It would have been a perjury trap had the questions posed to Trump not related to the investigation, but of course, they did. The fact that Mueller could count on both Manafort and Trump to bald-faced lie about… ummm… everything… is simply acknowledging a universal truth. And of course, anyone can avoid a perjury trap simply by _telling the truth_. I am sure Mueller already had everything he needed from Gates, who, let’s remember, also attempted to lie to Mueller in the beginning stages of his cooperation. A good prosecutor never asks a question to which he/she doesn’t already have the answer. You’d think even Trump’s shitty lawyers would know this basic rule. I’m looking forward to that sentencing report. As a rule, they are confidential. But this one may not be. Mueller could file an addendum as a regular pleading to the formal sentencing report that would be a part of the public record. ---
**Author:** ![Quint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/76d3ee/32.png) [@Quint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quint)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7715 "2018-11-27T06:05:32Z")
Trump is playing 3-D chess against a grand master. He is fucked. > [@jasg](#): > > Marcy Wheeler’s analysis is interesting. > > [Mueller just guaranteed he can issue a public report](https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/11/26/manafort-tests-the-theory-of-an-unpardonable-plea/) ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7716 "2018-11-27T14:36:37Z")
Trump is extra ornery again this morning on twitter. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7717 "2018-11-27T14:48:37Z")
What did Manafort lose by conspiring with Trump? Quite a bit: > One of the tidbits is that, if breached, Manafort could be fined to cover the costs of his own incarceration. Imagine not only going to jail until your death… but then _having to pay for it_. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7718 "2018-11-27T14:57:45Z")
Manafort [met with Assange](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/27/manafort-held-secret-talks-with-assange-in-ecuadorian-embassy) several times before the election, and took pains to hide his tracks. Oh, and there were Russians present as well. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7719 "2018-11-27T15:12:06Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Manafort [met with Assange](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/27/manafort-held-secret-talks-with-assange-in-ecuadorian-embassy) several times before the election, and took pains to hide his tracks. Oh, and there were Russians present as well. I was just reading this. Wonder how long Mueller has known. ---
**Author:** ![Celidin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Celidin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celidin)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7720 "2018-11-27T15:17:10Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Reminds me of the famed [“smartest guys in the room”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron) from a while back. You’re right! Who was that dude who was the deputy director-then-director of the Enron task force? Did a “terrific” (to coin a phrase) job nailing them? Oh yeah, [Andrew Weismann](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Weissmann). We could use him on this! That skill on pulling apart a huge conspiracy! With lots of rich, white guys who think they’re smarter than everyone else! [I wonder what he’s up to now](https://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/andrew-weissmann/)… ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7721 "2018-11-27T16:09:26Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Manafort [met with Assange](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/27/manafort-held-secret-talks-with-assange-in-ecuadorian-embassy) several times before the election, and took pains to hide his tracks. Oh, and there were Russians present as well. Quite a few security people are skeptical of this. Huge if true, but it’s single sourced right now. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/7722 "2018-11-27T16:26:46Z")
Very true. But remember [how Trump mentioned Wikileaks no fewer than 164 times in the last month of the election](https://twitter.com/JuddLegum/status/1067453427687583757)? Curious, that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=385) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=387)