# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 402
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8023 "2018-12-05T00:44:56Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > So… would you comment on this, please: > > **Does a committee subpoena carry the same weight as a court subpoena?** If it’s NOT like a court, then how can he take the fifth? I got my law degree (equivalent) from watching 5,000 hours of _Law & Order._ Besides, I’m having a hard time keeping up with the players, crimes, subpoenas, indictments, prison sentences, etc. It carries the same weight. They can hold him in criminal contempt and jail him in a federal prison for up to a year and fine him up to $100,000 unless/until he changes his mind. They can also issue subpoenas for documents from other organizations that may have what they want, such as his phone provider, ISP, etc. If Trump pardons him, he can be compelled to testify because he will no longer enjoy a 5th amendment protection. The committee will get what they asked for one way or another. It is a lot to keep up with, for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8024 "2018-12-05T00:47:55Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > You don’t know much about subpoenas duces tecum, do you? I know about the Trump organization: > **["Unusual" accounting: Inside a Trump business audit](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/inside-a-donald-trump-audit-missing-books-and-unusual-accounting/)** > > NYC audit of a 1980s hotel venture gives a rare glimpse into how a Donald Trump business operates ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8025 "2018-12-05T00:52:37Z")
Personally, I think the most slam-dunk case is the tax evasion one. I mean, the Trump Foundation didn’t even have any legal existence as a nonprofit. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8026 "2018-12-05T00:55:10Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I know about the Trump organization: > > [Inside a Donald Trump audit: Missing books and unusual accounting - CBS News](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/inside-a-donald-trump-audit-missing-books-and-unusual-accounting/) I doubt it’s going to be beyond the abilities of the IRS’s/Mueller’s/NYAG’s Office’s accountants. Working together, they’ll get it unraveled. In public. While an interested American majority learns what a bunch of thieving shitbirds are ruining their country. And after reading that story, you somehow think Trump is something _other_ than a “crooked businessman”? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8027 "2018-12-05T00:55:25Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Personally, I think the most slam-dunk case is the tax evasion one. I mean, the Trump Foundation didn’t even have any legal existence as a nonprofit. There are a lot of “easy” cases, given time to root through all of Trump’s information. The best evidence that we have that Trump is a complete idiot is that he continued to run for President even once he realized that it was possible to win. He screwed himself and his whole family, and they probably all knew it and couldn’t stop him. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8028 "2018-12-05T00:56:27Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > I doubt it’s going to be beyond the abilities of the IRS’s/Mueller’s/NYAG’s Office’s accountants. Working together, they’ll get it unraveled. In public. While an interested American majority learns what a bunch of thieving shitbirds are ruining their country. > > And after reading that story, you somehow think Trump is something _other_ than a “crooked businessman”? No, I was being sarcastic. Of course he’s a crooked businessman, and we already know that his CFO has flipped on him. He’s completely toast. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8029 "2018-12-05T00:59:45Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > It carries the same weight. They can hold him in criminal contempt and jail him in a federal prison for up to a year and fine him up to $100,000 unless/until he changes his mind. > > They can also issue subpoenas for documents from other organizations that may have what they want, such as his phone provider, ISP, etc. > > If Trump pardons him, he can be compelled to testify because he will no longer enjoy a 5th amendment protection. > > The committee will get what they asked for one way or another. > > It is a lot to keep up with, for sure. I like! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8030 "2018-12-05T01:00:11Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > No, I was being sarcastic. Of course he’s a crooked businessman, and we already know that his CFO has flipped on him. He’s completely toast. 😃 Well, ya sure whooshed me there, then. ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8031 "2018-12-05T01:23:51Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > So… would you comment on this, please: > > Does a committee subpoena carry the same weight as a court subpoena? If it’s NOT like a court, then how can he take the fifth? I got my law degree (equivalent) from watching 5,000 hours of _Law & Order._ Besides, I’m having a hard time keeping up with the players, crimes, subpoenas, indictments, prison sentences, etc. > [@Aspenglow](#): > > It carries the same weight. They can hold him in criminal contempt and jail him in a federal prison for up to a year and fine him up to $100,000 unless/until he changes his mind. > > They can also issue subpoenas for documents from other organizations that may have what they want, such as his phone provider, ISP, etc. > > If Trump pardons him, he can be compelled to testify because he will no longer enjoy a 5th amendment protection. > > The committee will get what they asked for one way or another. > > It is a lot to keep up with, for sure. Only thing is, [Stone wasn’t subpoenaed;](https://thehill.com/policy/cybersecurity/419727-stone-declines-dem-request-for-interview-documents-invoking-fifth) the documents and interview were merely requested by Senator Feinstein. > [@The Hill](#): > > Feinstein does not have the power to subpoena Stone in order to compel him to testify before lawmakers or deliver documents. That power would fall to Judiciary Committee Chairman Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa). Invoking the Fifth wasn’t necessary; he could have just said “no”. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8032 "2018-12-05T01:26:51Z")
> [@galen\_ubal](#): > > Only thing is, [Stone wasn’t subpoenaed;](https://thehill.com/policy/cybersecurity/419727-stone-declines-dem-request-for-interview-documents-invoking-fifth) the documents and interview were merely requested by Senator Feinstein. > > Invoking the Fifth wasn’t necessary; he could have just said “no”. That’s ok. He _will_ be subpoenaed, and he can invoke his Fifth Amendment privilege a second time. My understanding is that it’s pro forma to “request” the first time. Subpoena the second. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8033 "2018-12-05T01:42:47Z")
Well, shit. Still not ready to do a Big Reveal. Maybe Friday will bring more clarity. ETA: I’ll bet Trump is changing his tighty-whities, though. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8034 "2018-12-05T02:04:59Z")
> [@galen\_ubal](#): > > Only thing is, [Stone wasn’t subpoenaed;](https://thehill.com/policy/cybersecurity/419727-stone-declines-dem-request-for-interview-documents-invoking-fifth) the documents and interview were merely requested by Senator Feinstein. > … Oops. Sorry, my bad. I’m the one spreading fake news. I said I was having a hard time keeping up. So many potential indictments, so little time. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8035 "2018-12-05T02:19:17Z")
No jail time [recommended](https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/04/politics/flynn-mueller-filing/index.html) for Flynn due to the level of his cooperation. He must have given up quite a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Skypist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skypist/32/169_2.png) [@Skypist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skypist)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8036 "2018-12-05T02:26:21Z")
Awful lot of redacted information, dang it. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8037 "2018-12-05T02:28:13Z")
> [@Skypist](#): > > Awful lot of redacted information, dang it. A considerably milder reaction than Trump & lawyers doubtless had. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8038 "2018-12-05T02:28:15Z")
Nineteen interviews… I’d say yes, he gave up all he had. I wish we’d learned more tonight, but all that redacted text tells me there is much, much more to come. Flynn appears to be helping with an unrelated criminal investigation, the Special Counsel’s investigation – most particularly the conspiracy module of SC’s investigation – and some other related investigation. In short, there is a whole lot more to learn, in due course. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8039 "2018-12-05T02:35:48Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > You don’t know much about subpoenas duces tecum, do you? Already got a subpoena, and then you get duces? Fold. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8040 "2018-12-05T03:38:27Z")
With Michael Flynn back in the news tonight, Lawrence O’Donnell on MSNBC just played a clip of Flynn at the Republican convention talking about Clinton–another classic case of psychological projection from and to Trump’s base: Flynn: “We don’t need a reckless President who thinks she’s above the law!” As I’ve mentioned before, what Trump and his supporters say about his enemies are what Trump is; he’s the one who is lyin’, crooked, dishonest,… And how Trump or his supporters describe him is what he is not: smart, stable, honest, having the best temperament,… ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8041 "2018-12-05T05:14:24Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Does a committee subpoena carry the same weight as a court subpoena? If it’s NOT like a court, then how can he take the fifth? The committee can subpoena him for his testimony. If they were to compel him to testify, he could be forced to say something incriminating, which in turn could then be used in criminal proceedings. He’s got the right to keep silent generally, not just in courts. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8042 "2018-12-05T06:24:25Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > With Michael Flynn back in the news tonight, Lawrence O’Donnell on MSNBC just played a clip of Flynn at the Republican convention talking about Clinton–another classic case of psychological projection from and to Trump’s base: > > Flynn: “We don’t need a reckless President who thinks she’s above the law!” > > As I’ve mentioned before, what Trump and his supporters say about his enemies are what Trump is; he’s the one who is lyin’, crooked, dishonest,… And how Trump or his supporters describe him is what he is not: smart, stable, honest, having the best temperament,… No, no. You misunderstand. There’s no hypocrisy here. They clearly stated that they don’t want a president who thinks **she** is above the law. A president who’s a **he** , now that’s a totally different situation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=401) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=403)