# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 409
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8163 "2018-12-09T16:51:52Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > One of the fears concerning this is that having found new sources for soy beans, Chinese buyers will be reluctant to switch back to US suppliers. If their new source of soybeans isn’t as volatile and unpredictable as the US, especially if they used their weight to get some contracts and guarantees, then yeah, why would they come back to us? Trade wars _are_ easy to win. You produce a good or service that people want to buy, and you win. You purchase goods and services that others want to sell, and you win. Any non-punitive restrictions on international trade makes everyone lose. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8164 "2018-12-09T17:57:43Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I don’t understand why it matters that Trump did or didn’t know his actions were criminal. Ignorance of the law isn’t an excuse. It is unnecessary to demonstrate a defendant knew what he was doing was a crime. It depends on the elements of the offence in question. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8165 "2018-12-09T18:04:51Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > It depends on the elements of the offence in question. Indeed, that is why usually felons like Trump get caught in the part where they make extraordinary moves to stop the offense from being found out. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8166 "2018-12-09T18:21:27Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Mueller’s filing reveals that he has Trump in his sights for felonies; and Trump responds with a Twitter storm. What struck me as amusing was that Trump’s tweets, while emphasizing Leakin’ Lyin’ James Comey (who along with Mueller is a life-long Republican though Thrump blames the D’s), he also singles out > “Bruce Ohr (and his lovely wife Molly).” > What is all that about? And Ohr’s wife is named “Nellie.” [This Washington Post piece explains Trump’s preoccupation with Bruce Ohr much better than I ever could](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/08/16/who-is-bruce-ohr-why-does-trump-keep-tweeting-about-him/?utm_term=.552ca6543c8b). In short, Trump is attempting to draw unfounded conclusions about Bruce Ohr and his wife, Nellie, that suit his narrative but have no basis in reality. Plays well to the base, though. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8167 "2018-12-09T19:17:45Z")
“Ohr, me hearties! Ohr! Ohr!” said the President. (No, he didn’t really, its a scummy internet rumor. No one seems to know how these things get started.) ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8168 "2018-12-09T20:05:08Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > One of the fears concerning this is that having found new sources for soy beans, Chinese buyers will be reluctant to switch back to US suppliers. I thought I read that they’ve found a new market in India. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8169 "2018-12-09T22:17:19Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > I thought I read that they’ve found a new market in India. Good for the farmers. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8170 "2018-12-09T22:24:48Z")
India is offering to [export Indian soybeans to China.](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/foreign-trade/india-pitches-for-soybean-exports-to-china-amid-us-trade-spat/articleshow/63763354.cms) China also buys from Brazil. Will China switch back to the USA? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8171 "2018-12-09T22:52:09Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > India is offering to [export Indian soybeans to China.](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/foreign-trade/india-pitches-for-soybean-exports-to-china-amid-us-trade-spat/articleshow/63763354.cms) China also buys from Brazil. > > Will China switch back to the USA? Assuming that the country is being lead by one of the premier negotiators who ever lived, then yes because that would be a condition of the deal that ended the Trade War. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8172 "2018-12-09T23:26:57Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > India is offering to [export Indian soybeans to China.](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/foreign-trade/india-pitches-for-soybean-exports-to-china-amid-us-trade-spat/articleshow/63763354.cms) China also buys from Brazil. > > Will China switch back to the USA? If they need encouragement, the America-hating fuckstick will probably tell the Chinese that he’s ordered American soybean farmers to offer several new flavors of soybean, including: chocolate, cinnamon, strawberry, Double-Stuft, cookies&cream, and with marshmallow bits. If THAT doesn’t bring 'em back, NOTHING will! ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8173 "2018-12-09T23:28:22Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Assuming that the country is being **lead** by one of the premier negotiators who ever lived, then yes because that would be a condition of the deal that ended the Trade War. Ahem. “led.” That is all. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8174 "2018-12-09T23:30:36Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Ahem. > > “led.” > > That is all. So it is. [“Led” or “Lead”—What Is the Past Tense of “Lead”? | Grammarly](https://www.grammarly.com/blog/led-lead/) ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8175 "2018-12-09T23:55:25Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Ahem. > > “led.” > > That is all. until you inevitably show up one day talking of “reign[ing] in” a rogue actor of some sort… ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8176 "2018-12-10T00:50:06Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > The counter-argument: if Trump had no idea it was wrong, then why did he lie about it? > > (It’s already proven that Trump knew the money was being paid out, isn’t it?) > [@DinoR](#): > > Politicians spin, obfuscate and outright lie about sex scandals that don’t involve criminal activity all the time. Avoiding possible political repercussions is a reasonable response if the only evidence of an important part of the crime is the question “why lie?” Without other evidence, I can’t see the burden of proof being met for an indictment, let alone the higher burden for a criminal conviction, based simply on the existence of the lie. … The existence of the lies _about the payoffs_ is evidence of consciousness of guilt. We’re not talking here about a man lying to hide the fact that he’d had affairs. We’re talking about a man lying to hide the fact that he’d paid off women to keep their stories from derailing his political campaign. The affairs themselves were not secrets\*; many at _In Touch_ magazine became familiar with Stormy Daniels’ account back in 2011, though they didn’t publish at the time. Similarly, David Pecker’s National Enquirer offices is said to hold a safe filled with what’s common knowledge to many–Trump’s affairs. So what Trump was protecting with his lies was disclosure of attempts to thwart campaign finance laws. That’s evidence that he knew that thwarting campaign finance laws is illegal conduct. But as you say: Mueller may well have even harder evidence, not yet made public. - > **[National Enquirer ‘Caught! Trump & His Mistress’](https://www.thedailybeast.com/national-enquirer-caught-trump-and-his-mistress)** > > Donald Trump says the supermarket tabloid has ‘a very good record of being right.’ Surely that must include when it targeted his and his sexual partners’ secrets. [https://www.axios.com/stormy-daniels-60-minutes-physically-threatened-trump-affair-9dbe6f2e-6521-41ae-9b90-ee6f6c048ae6.html](https://www.axios.com/stormy-daniels-60-minutes-physically-threatened-trump-affair-9dbe6f2e-6521-41ae-9b90-ee6f6c048ae6.html) ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8177 "2018-12-10T03:27:39Z")
Ooooo…this should be interesting. \*\* Done With Michael Cohen, Federal Prosecutors Shift Focus to Trump Family Business \*\* > **[Done With Michael Cohen, Federal Prosecutors Shift Focus to Trump Family...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/09/us/trump-organization-federal-prosecutors.html)** > > Prosecutors say President Trump organized illegal payments to two women during the presidential campaign. Now they want to know if he and Mr. Cohen acted alone. > [@](#): > > …What the prosecutors did not say in Mr. Cohen’s sentencing memorandum filed on Friday, however, is that they have continued to scrutinize what other executives in the president’s family business may have known about those crimes, which involved hush-money payments to two women who had said they had affairs with Mr. Trump. > > After Mr. Cohen pleaded guilty in Augustto breaking campaign finance laws and other crimes — he will be sentenced on Wednesday — the federal prosecutors in Manhattan shifted their attention to what role, if any, Trump Organization executives played in the campaign finance violations, according to people briefed on the matter. > … ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8178 "2018-12-10T03:31:46Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I don’t understand why it matters that Trump did or didn’t know his actions were criminal. Ignorance of the law isn’t an excuse. It is unnecessary to demonstrate a defendant knew what he was doing was a crime. As **AK84** commented, it depends on the exact wording of the offence. While ignorance of the law isn’t a defence, some offences are drafted to require specific knowledge by the individual. If the offence uses words like “wilfully” or “knowingly”, that means that the prosecutor must prove that the accused did in fact know that he was committing the offence. The reason for this type of wording, especially in financial offences, is to avoid criminalising negligence. For instance, when you’re running a major campaign, there will be mistakes made about how money is collected, how it’s allocated, how it’s spent. Errors of those sort need to be corrected and may attract civil penalties, but criminal penalties may be reserved for clear cases where the person knowingly and intentionally violated the law. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8179 "2018-12-10T14:56:32Z")
Especially in financial crimes, there is such a thing as [“willful blindness,”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willful_blindness) something banks take great pains to avoid tripping over. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8180 "2018-12-10T15:41:51Z")
I hadn’t realized that the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York, like Sessions, has recused himself from the Trump investigations. His deputy seems to be the guy calling the shots, and working closely with Mueller. > **[Geoffrey Berman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_Berman)** > > Geoffrey Steven Berman (born September 12, 1959) is an American attorney who served as the United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York from 2018 to 2020. > Berman served as an Assistant United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York from 1990 to 1994. In January 2018, U.S. Attorney General Jeff Sessions announced Berman's appointment as interim U.S. Attorney for a statutory period of 120 days. On April 25, 2018, the judges of the Southern District of New York, purs... > **[Robert Khuzami](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Khuzami)** > > Robert S. Khuzami (Arabic: روبرت خوزمي; born August 2, 1956) was the Deputy U.S. Attorney for the United States Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York until March 22, 2019. He previously was a United States federal prosecutor and Assistant United States Attorney for the office, and a former director of the Division of Enforcement of the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. He was previously a partner at law firm Kirkland & Ellis. and general counsel of Deutsche Ba Khuzami w... ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8181 "2018-12-10T16:12:32Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I hadn’t realized that the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York, like Sessions, has recused himself from the Trump investigations. His deputy seems to be the guy calling the shots, and working closely with Mueller. > > [Geoffrey Berman - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_Berman) > [Robert Khuzami - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Khuzami) This was actually a really big deal when it happened, because Berman was one of Trump’s handpicked, personally-interviewed choices to head up SDNY after he fired Preet Bharara. Might have been one of the first times Trump was confronted with the fact that just because he is awarding these positions doesn’t mean these folks will deviate from their oaths of office to be loyal to _him_. Let’s hope he learns the same lesson if/when he nominates William Barr as AG and the Senate confirms him. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8182 "2018-12-10T17:01:11Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > …Let’s hope he learns the same lesson if/when he nominates William Barr as AG and the Senate confirms him. _BEEP_ Reference to thump “learning a lesson” – does not compute. Sorry, no soup for you! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=408) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=410)