# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 414
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8263 "2018-12-13T15:00:54Z")
Doing stupid stuff on impulse is so much his trademark that he might be able to sue anyone else who tries. If there really is treason there and the probe gets to close he might panic and defect. Or try to, I don’t trust him to pull it off. He’d leave rather a shitstorm behind. Would Putin accept him? It seems like it would be on of those “He did WHAT?” moments. Not that it would be the first time Trump gave other world leaders those. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8264 "2018-12-13T15:08:46Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > Doing stupid stuff on impulse is so much his trademark that he might be able to sue anyone else who tries. If there really is treason there and the probe gets to close he might panic and defect. Or try to, I don’t trust him to pull it off. He’d leave rather a shitstorm behind. Would Putin accept him? It seems like it would be on of those “He did WHAT?” moments. Not that it would be the first time Trump gave other world leaders those. I would like to see Putin accept him to continue to serve Putin. Cleaning toilets. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8265 "2018-12-13T15:49:43Z")
I was kinda hoping that when the Republicans reached the “acceptance” phase of the five stages of grief, that it would be acceptance that they had made a mistake about electing a criminal as president, and not accepting that we now have a criminal president. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8266 "2018-12-13T15:55:48Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > I was kinda hoping that when the Republicans reached the “acceptance” phase of the five stages of grief, that it would be acceptance that they had made a mistake about electing a criminal as president, and not accepting that we now have a criminal president. I know where I’m putting my money. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8267 "2018-12-13T16:19:57Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > …In a perfect world, both House and Senate would agree whether or not the President’s actions constitute “high crimes and misdemeanors” and act accordingly, without regard to political implications. But we don’t live in a perfect world. In the world we live in, a House vote to impeach along party lines, followed by a Senate acquittal on party lines, would be disastrous for everybody. It would look like “politics as usual”… I suspect you’re right, unless some absolutely stunning bombshell of Trumpian criminality comes to light. Even then, there will still be Republican senators who will stand by the President, because they fear Trump-driven primary challenges. But as Gerald Ford said, “An impeachable offense is whatever a majority of the House of Representatives considers it to be at a given moment in history.” ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8268 "2018-12-13T16:41:24Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I suspect you’re right, unless some absolutely stunning bombshell of Trumpian criminality comes to light. Even then, there will still be Republican senators who will stand by the President, because they fear Trump-driven primary challenges. > > But as Gerald Ford said, “An impeachable offense is whatever a majority of the House of Representatives considers it to be at a given moment in history.” I just posted something about this [here.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21376043&postcount=39820) Orrin Hatch may not be worried about primary challenges, but he’s chosen his side already, and it’s not the side of law & order. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8269 "2018-12-13T17:06:46Z")
> [@Anny\_Middon](#): > > Or, as I read on Twitter, roughly 10 Scaramuccis. I think you’re off by a factor of 10. Should be close to 100 Scaramuccis. * * * Meanwhile enough about Individual number one. I’m curious about [client number 3](https://www.elitedaily.com/p/who-are-michael-cohens-clients-a-secret-third-one-was-named-in-court-8804660). Now that Cohen has apparently seen the error of his ways and been born again in Muellers cleansing fire, I wonder whether said client is sleeping well at night. I will note that it appears he has [deleted all of his tweets](https://www.newsweek.com/sean-hannity-michael-cohen-delete-tweets-friends-trump-lawyer-jail-1256322) that indicated any connection between himself and Cohen. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8270 "2018-12-13T17:24:11Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > I just posted something about this [here.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21376043&postcount=39820) Orrin Hatch may not be worried about primary challenges, but he’s chosen his side already, and it’s not the side of law & order. In Hatch’s defense, he did say this: “This great nation can tolerate a President who makes mistakes. But it cannot tolerate one who makes a mistake and then breaks the law to cover it up. Any other citizen would be prosecuted for these crimes.” So he \*does \*believe in law & order, and holding a president accountable for his actions and misdeeds. Well, as long as that president is a Democrat, I suppose, seeing as he spoke those words in 1999 about Bill Clinton. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8271 "2018-12-13T17:58:07Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I suspect you’re right, unless some absolutely stunning bombshell of Trumpian criminality comes to light. Even then, there will still be Republican senators who will stand by the President, because they fear Trump-driven primary challenges. > > But as Gerald Ford said, “An impeachable offense is whatever a majority of the House of Representatives considers it to be at a given moment in history.” At all costs, I want the upcoming proceedings to avoid any possible comparison with the farce that was the Clinton impeachment. If both houses of Congress can’t achieve the level of bipartisanship and gravitas that we saw during the Watergate hearings…they’re better off punting. Leave it to the criminal courts, the 2020 elections, and history (which will not look kindly on the Republican senate). ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8272 "2018-12-13T17:58:13Z")
The Onion- it’s a funny newspaper! > **[Michael Cohen Completes First Stage Of Intricate Plan To Break Incarcerated...](https://www.theonion.com/michael-cohen-completes-first-stage-of-intricate-plan-t-1831052788)** > > NEW YORK—After receiving a three-year sentence in a federal penitentiary for tax evasion, campaign finance violations, misleading a bank, and lying to Congress, Michael Cohen completed the first of stage of his intricate plan to break his... “…Michael Cohen completed the first of stage of his intricate plan to break his incarcerated brother out of prison from the inside, sources confirmed Wednesday.” ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8273 "2018-12-13T18:02:23Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I think you’re off by a factor of 10. Should be close to 100 Scaramuccis. > > * * * > > Meanwhile enough about Individual number one. I’m curious about [client number 3](https://www.elitedaily.com/p/who-are-michael-cohens-clients-a-secret-third-one-was-named-in-court-8804660). > > Now that Cohen has apparently seen the error of his ways and been born again in Muellers cleansing fire, I wonder whether said client is sleeping well at night. I will note that it appears he has [deleted all of his tweets](https://www.newsweek.com/sean-hannity-michael-cohen-delete-tweets-friends-trump-lawyer-jail-1256322) that indicated any connection between himself and Cohen. I thought that was the most hilarious thing I heard yesterday. I relish the idea that Mr. Hannity will suffer Mueller’s wrath almost as much as watching the Trumpino Family go down in flames. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8274 "2018-12-13T18:03:28Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > I would like to see Putin accept him to continue to serve Putin. > > Cleaning toilets. Food taster. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8275 "2018-12-13T18:20:17Z")
[Maria Butina pleaded guilty today](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/zoetillman/maria-butina-plea-conspiracy-russia-agent) to conspiring to act as a Russian agent in the U.S. She said she will cooperate with the government and they are holding off sentencing until they see what cooperation she provides. While it might be tougher to draw a direct line between her and the president, this can’t be good for the Republican party or the NRA. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8276 "2018-12-13T18:23:00Z")
She will be missed. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8277 "2018-12-13T18:27:36Z")
So despite the outward veneer of confidence, [NBC News is reporting that Trump is expressing to friends that he’s becoming concerned about impeachment](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/trump-confides-friends-he-s-concerned-about-impeachment-n947296). As well he fucking should, with the Dems taking control of the House, the daily updates coming out of the Mueller investigation, the crumbling of support from establishment Republicans, etc. It does appear the vice is tightening around Trump. At this point, there has to be a nonzero probability that he doesn’t finish his term, and Pence becomes president at some point over the next two years. And if that happens, there’s a very real possibility Pence would pardon his former boss, for the sake of “healing the nation” or some such bullshit. [Even if he makes it to January 20, 2021, there’s that prediction that Trump resigns 10 minutes before his term ends so Pence can pardon him.](https://thehill.com/homenews/media/420510-conservative-columnist-predicts-trump-will-resign-10-minutes-before-pence-so) So my question is: How are the state cases shaping up against Trump? Even with a federal pardon, is there still a chance he ends up in the pokey for state crimes? I often have a hard time keeping up with all this stuff, and seeing Donald Fucking Trump locked up sometime in the future is my only Christmas wish. So thanks in advance for the legal update. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_McQwark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4da419/32.png) [@Steve\_McQwark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_McQwark)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8278 "2018-12-13T18:34:51Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I suspect you’re right, unless some absolutely stunning bombshell of Trumpian criminality comes to light. Even then, there will still be Republican senators who will stand by the President, because they fear Trump-driven primary challenges. Garry Trudeau’s Doonesbury from July 1974 is still remarkably applicable: [Doonesbury by Garry Trudeau for July 23, 1974 - GoComics](https://www.gocomics.com/doonesbury/1974/07/23) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8279 "2018-12-13T19:14:24Z")
> [@Steve\_McQwark](#): > > Garry Trudeau’s Doonesbury from July 1974 is still remarkably applicable: [Doonesbury by Garry Trudeau for July 23, 1974 - GoComics](https://www.gocomics.com/doonesbury/1974/07/23) Heh. I remember that. And yet there’s Candidate Trump’s comment about shooting someone in the middle of Fifth Avenue… ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8280 "2018-12-13T19:23:51Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Heh. I remember that. And yet there’s Candidate Trump’s comment about shooting someone in the middle of Fifth Avenue… Is it too much to hope he carries out that threat and the someone he shoots is himself? ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8281 "2018-12-13T19:25:35Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > So despite the outward veneer of confidence, [NBC News is reporting that Trump is expressing to friends that he’s becoming concerned about impeachment](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/trump-confides-friends-he-s-concerned-about-impeachment-n947296). As well he fucking should, with the Dems taking control of the House, the daily updates coming out of the Mueller investigation, the crumbling of support from establishment Republicans, etc. > > It does appear the vice is tightening around Trump. At this point, there has to be a nonzero probability that he doesn’t finish his term, and Pence becomes president at some point over the next two years. And if that happens, there’s a very real possibility Pence would pardon his former boss, for the sake of “healing the nation” or some such bullshit. [Even if he makes it to January 20, 2021, there’s that prediction that Trump resigns 10 minutes before his term ends so Pence can pardon him.](https://thehill.com/homenews/media/420510-conservative-columnist-predicts-trump-will-resign-10-minutes-before-pence-so) > > So my question is: How are the state cases shaping up against Trump? Even with a federal pardon, is there still a chance he ends up in the pokey for state crimes? I often have a hard time keeping up with all this stuff, and seeing Donald Fucking Trump locked up sometime in the future is my only Christmas wish. So thanks in advance for the legal update. I really discount the notion of Pence pardoning Trump. First, I don’t think he is going to become president. I think he’ll be lucky to avoid an indictment himself. Remember, he’s never been interviewed by the Mueller team – [was actually soliciting an interview publicly not long ago](https://www.politico.com/story/2018/09/09/pence-mueller-investigation-counsel-812351). I hate to break it you, Mike, but it’s like a game of musical chairs. If you haven’t already been interviewed, you’re likely a target and have found yourself without a chair. But let’s assume for argument’s sake that somehow Pence threads the needle and finds himself as a succession president. It will _not_ be because he has popular support. He is not a natural leader (witness his performance at the Chuck 'n Nancy Show on Tuesday), he is not quick on his feet and he does not have the rogue allure to Trump’s constituency of crazies. His sole reliable support is among the evangelical nutjobs. This is a tiny sliver of the national electorate. With at least 60% of Americans despising him and his whackadoodle policies, if he has any remaining political ambitions whatsoever, he won’t be able to pardon Trump. I think many people in this country are about to receive a valuable experience lesson in the old saw that the wheels of justice grind slowly, but they grind exceedingly fine. From all indications, I think Mueller waits only for January 3rd, when he will receive some real protection from the Democratic majority in the House, before unleashing indictments. There is no way to gauge what the public reaction will be to real solid evidence and charges coming from Mueller. I think the House Dems are waiting for Mueller to do his stuff before pursuing impeachment or anything else. First, out of courtesy and respect for Mueller, who has given his all to this investigation, and second, in order to bolster the House pursuit of impeachment with the best possible evidence of _all_ criminal activity. There is much more than just what is known at this point: Money laundering schemes, pay-to-play, bribery, possible conspiracies with not just Russians but also Saudis and/or Turks… the well is nearly bottomless. We’re already seeing fine cracks among Republican senators. Imagine how much harder it is going to be for them to continue their support in the face of massive, provable criminal activity on a dozen different fronts. The public must demand their appropriate response from the Senate. Any Republican senator who hopes to have a future in politics will be forced to vote for removal. But even assuming all this somehow fails, yes! There are other U.S. Attorneys’ offices: New York Southern District, D.C. District, Virginia Eastern District, etc. Then there are the state investigations/prosecutions. New York, New Jersey, Virginia, D.C., Florida, California… it’s a long list. There is the IRS and their criminal division. There is the Federal Election Commission. There is the City of Manhattan. Every single one of these entities are pursuing potential civil and criminal violations of not just Trump himself, but those of his Trump Organization, Trump Foundation and the kids. SDNY is having a blast just now, but all of the above will also have their moment in the sun. And this is before we even get to the Emoluments cases being pursued by members of Congress and the State of Maryland. Grind, grind, grind, grind. One day, there will be only dust. You can count on it. Mike Pence will not provide salvation. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8282 "2018-12-13T19:32:56Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > [NBC News is reporting that Trump is expressing to friends that he’s becoming concerned about impeachment](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/trump-confides-friends-he-s-concerned-about-impeachment-n947296). From the linked article: > [@](#): > > “The entire question about whether the president committed an impeachable offense now hinges on the testimony of two men: David Pecker and Allen Weisselberg, both cooperating witnesses in the SDNY investigation," a close Trump ally told NBC News. I think that Mr. Mueller may have something to say about this as well. ETA: **Aspenglow** said it better! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=413) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=415)