# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 419
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8363 "2018-12-17T03:42:50Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > If there is justice, there must surely be more charges to arise out of this orchestrated criminal effort. I think the goal for Mueller and the FBI will be to haul in a whole bunch of people in a single go, to try and make it impossible for the pardon to happen - there will simply be too much information about too many people, and you can’t fight it off story by story because it’s simply too extreme and provable. I think they need to find all of the congressmen who were accepting information from Russia. For that, they need to confirm information from Butina, which will probably take about 6 months. Trump Jr. is probably already toast. Kushner may be clean, he may be dirty with the Saudis, it’s not clear. I suspect that they have the information to make that determination, but how much of it they want to use in court, because it would reveal sources and means is hard to say. If they’re not willing to use that information in court, then I think they would need Eric Prince and George Nader cooperating. Nader has fled the country and there’s been no indication that Prince is being targeted. Kushner may have lied about the Veselnitskaya meeting, saying that he realized it was a big nothing and decided to skip it in that basis. My guess would be that he went in not really thinking about anything then realized that the discussion was criminal and hauled ass out of there. Overall the lie is small and hard to prove, minus a recording of the meeting. At most he’s probably guilty for failure to report crimes. Ivanka might be in danger on the inauguration. But, if so, probably not on anything big. I suspect that she’s kept buffered from most criminal conversations. She may have done something criminal on her own, but that would be a whole different investigation than everything else, so if it only started a few months ago, she’s probably safe for a year. To get Trump on Russia, you need to know that he knew. Cohen tells us that Trump knew a few things, but most of the mega-bad would require Manafort to have given up the details. Gates probably only has some ancillary hints about what Trump knew. With Stone maybe you get enough, if you can flip him. That’s still probably a minimum of 6 months off. To get Trump on Israel and Saudi Arabia, you are in the same situation as you are with Kushner. So probably my expectation would be that around mid-January, Eric Prince will be hauled in and it will take 6+ months to try and flip him. Right now, I suspect that they’re busy pulling sources out of the Middle East and doing all of the other prep work to blow their sources, so they can take Prince to trial. Hopefully around the same time you’ll get Stone. But I suspect that Prince will tell everything and Stone will play the Manafort game and commit to being a useless liar. Outside of a bright ray of sunshine in mid-January, I think we’re going to still have until late summer before the dam goes. But then, one day, the FBI will sweep through DC, pick up a half dozen congressmen, Junior, and Kushner and parade them through the street in their way to Federal custody. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8364 "2018-12-17T04:03:18Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > I can’t even find the post where **JohnT** originally posted that, but I hadn’t seen that link until just now… See this quote? See the little arrow beside your name? Click on that to be taken to the quoted source. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8365 "2018-12-17T05:52:02Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > See this quote? See the little arrow beside your name? Click on that to be taken to the quoted source. Speaking of little arrows… ( **Aspenglow** )\<— this girl can be remarkably dense. Thank you so much for pointing out the usefulness of that little tag, which I had never even noticed. It will be an enormous help! :o ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8366 "2018-12-17T06:17:56Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > See this quote? See the little arrow beside your name? Click on that to be taken to the quoted source. > [@Aspenglow](#): > > Speaking of little arrows… > > ( **Aspenglow** )\<— this girl can be remarkably dense. Thank you so much for pointing out the usefulness of that little tag, which I had never even noticed. It will be an enormous help! > > :o It’s hard to see on the newer theme, too. I sometimes forget it’s there. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8367 "2018-12-17T06:36:43Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I definitely think it will but the Senate has an apolitical out … they can set the precedent that impeachment does not apply to acts\* before the election/inauguration, only to high crimes and misdemeanors during the term of office. > > \*Assuming such acts did not directly influence the election such as buying off electors or directly ordering the tampering of voting equipment. Indirect influence such as releasing emails or spreading fake news or perjury in a civil case would not be worthy of conviction. That’s not really an out, though. If he can’t be impeached for such actions, then the argument against indicting him breaks down. When pressed on what to do about a criminal president, they always say that the correct remedy is impeachment and conviction. Either he can be impeached for crimes before being president, or he can be indicted for them. Also, even indirect influence challenges the legitimacy of the election, and that’s not a great place for an elected congress to be in. It delegitimizes their own power. I mean, they’re already having to deal with one guy in North Carolina who seems to have committed election fraud. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8368 "2018-12-17T06:50:05Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Speaking of little arrows… > > ( **Aspenglow** )\<— this girl can be remarkably dense. Thank you so much for pointing out the usefulness of that little tag, which I had never even noticed. It will be an enormous help! > > :o > [@BigT](#): > > It’s hard to see on the newer theme, too. I sometimes forget it’s there. Item Number 5,049 in the _Why the New Theme Sucks Donkey Balls_ series. Collect the whole set! ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8369 "2018-12-17T14:33:42Z")
There are 17 known investigations into Individual-1 and his companies. Here is a quick rundown of them: > **[A Complete Guide to All 17 (Known) Trump and Russia Investigations](https://www.wired.com/story/mueller-investigation-trump-russia-complete-guide/)** > > The investigation into Russian interference and Donald Trump has sprung so many offshoots, it's hard to keep track. Here's a comprehensive list. It's long. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8370 "2018-12-17T14:47:26Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > There are 17 known investigations into Individual-1 and his companies. Here is a quick rundown of them: > > [A Complete Guide to All 17 (Known) Trump and Russia Investigations | WIRED](https://www.wired.com/story/mueller-investigation-trump-russia-complete-guide/) The words “Manafort aide Sam Patten” pops up in a lot of them. I don’t remember his name cropping up at all, although there are so many players I may have just forgotten him. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8371 "2018-12-17T14:56:58Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > [Rudy helps some more](https://us.cnn.com/2018/12/16/politics/rudy-giuliani-trump-tower/index.html). I love it when he does that. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8372 "2018-12-17T15:02:30Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > The words “Manafort aide Sam Patten” pops up in a lot of them. I don’t remember his name cropping up at all, although there are so many players I may have just forgotten him. Same here. Somehow Patten slipped by my notice - I assume that either it slipped by the entire board or no one who saw it posted an article here, back when it happened. There have been a few other things like that. It slipped by me, for example, that George Nader had escaped the country. There’s just too many crimes by too many people. And, of course, both the FBI and Mueller are trying to keep their activities private. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8373 "2018-12-17T15:07:09Z")
You just keep [talkin’](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHT0qUpLxMI) Rudy. That’s what you’re good at. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8374 "2018-12-17T15:10:49Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > There are 17 known investigations into Individual-1 and his companies. Here is a quick rundown of them: > > [A Complete Guide to All 17 (Known) Trump and Russia Investigations | WIRED](https://www.wired.com/story/mueller-investigation-trump-russia-complete-guide/) Thank you for posting that! I’ve been looking for a summary like that! ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8375 "2018-12-17T15:25:21Z")
Doubling that thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8376 "2018-12-17T15:25:29Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > There are 17 known investigations into Individual-1 and his companies. Here is a quick rundown of them: > > [A Complete Guide to All 17 (Known) Trump and Russia Investigations | WIRED](https://www.wired.com/story/mueller-investigation-trump-russia-complete-guide/) It’s the ‘Trump Touch’. Everything he gets his hands on turns to corruption. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8377 "2018-12-17T15:37:27Z")
[Individual-1 in 2016](http://time.com/4819919/donald-trump-obstruction-justice-investigation/): > [@](#): > > “We’re going to be tied up in court for the rest of our lives with this deal,” he added, referring to if Clinton were elected. “She’s not going to win the election, but I’m just saying. If Hillary is elected, she will be under protracted criminal investigation likely followed by the trial of a sitting president. This is just what we need.” > > “If Hillary Clinton were to be elected, it would create an unprecedented and protracted constitutional crisis,” Trump said during another speech on Nov. 2, 2016. > > Two days ahead of the election on Nov. 5, 2016, Trump said Clinton’s “current scandals and controversies will continue throughout her presidency” and it would be “impossible for her to govern.” ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8378 "2018-12-17T15:38:04Z")
Kind of like Midas crossed with Al Capone. ---
**Author:** ![Frazzled](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frazzled/32/3368_2.png) [@Frazzled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frazzled)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8379 "2018-12-17T16:49:49Z")
> [@aurora\_maire](#): > > Rudy was a manic mess with Chris Wallace on Fox today. The whole time I was thinking that a good lawyer, if he believed his client was innocent, would calmly state his points and not start yelling and waving his arms and contradicting himself every other sentence in a stream-of-consciousness reptilian brain dump. It was fascinating to think that _anyone_ believes that Rudy is helping here. Even Chris was laughing that he couldn’t get a single coherent answer out of him. He really was - he was all over the place with his answers and then Chris would try to bring him either back on track, or at least try to get him to clarify something. Then Rudy has the gall to accuse Chris of being all over the place with his interview! ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8380 "2018-12-17T17:57:15Z")
Here’s an interesting development at the sideshow of this circus. [Ex-Flynn business associates charged with trying to influence US politicians in Turkish lobbying case](https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/17/politics/michael-flynn-business-partner/index.html) > [@CNN](#): > > Two former business associates of former national security adviser Michael Flynn were charged with trying to influence American politicians to seek the extradition of a Turkish cleric, according to an indictment filed in the Eastern District of Virginia. > > … > > The charges come amid a sweep of prosecutions of individuals illegally lobbying for foreign governments – previously a rarely charged crime – and amid special counsel Robert Mueller’s inquiry into influence in the 2016 presidential campaign. I assume these charges came straight out of the grand jury Mueller has empaneled in Virginia. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8381 "2018-12-17T18:48:19Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Kind of like Midas crossed with Al Capone. Merde-as – everything he touches turns to shit. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8382 "2018-12-17T19:19:09Z")
I’ve said before that the silver lining of Trump’s presidency is that it’s the death knell for organized crime around the world, because Trump has dealings with all of them, and following his threads will lead investigators to all of them. Ordinarily the mobs wouldn’t trust an incompetent like Trump or his cronies with anything damning, but with him being the President, they have to maintain closer ties to him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=418) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=420)