# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 422
**Author:** ![Calatin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Calatin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calatin)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8423 "2018-12-18T18:04:47Z")
Seems like Flynn had the fear of God put into him by the judge. Between the whole “treason” questions and “You know, if you are still working with the Special Counsel, I can only factor in the work you’ve done with them to this point, and I can’t consider any future collaboration,” Flynn is going to get as much blood from his turnip as possible. Only thing is, what else hasn’t he provided? There’ve been 19 meetings. Has he really been sitting on additional information? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8424 "2018-12-18T18:08:35Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Oh and now the judge is walking it back They don’t have a multi-judge panel, so he has to do both the “bad cop” and the “good cop” parts. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8425 "2018-12-18T18:18:01Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Live-Tweeting the Flynn sentencing: > > [https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly/status/1075061464325611520](https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly/status/1075061464325611520) > > “Judge Sullivan to Michael Flynn: “Arguably, you sold your country out.”" More from that > [@](#): > > **Judge Sullivan:** Is Mr. Flynn still cooperating? > > \*\* Gov: \*\*It “remains a possibility” that he’s still cooperating. Not exactly the most ringing endorsement. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8426 "2018-12-18T18:34:46Z")
> [@Calatin](#): > > \ > > Only thing is, what else hasn’t he provided? There’ve been 19 meetings. **Has he really been sitting on additional information?** > [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > \ > > > [@](#): > > > > Judge Sullivan: Is Mr. Flynn still cooperating? > > > > Gov: **It “remains a possibility” that he’s still cooperating**. > > Not exactly the most ringing endorsement. Based on the two statements I bolded above and reading between the lines, it seems to suggest that yes, Flynn still has more information to share. Not for nothing does Trump continue to treat Flynn like a Knight of the Royal Order and Cohen like a peasant. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8427 "2018-12-18T18:55:44Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Based on the two statements I bolded above and reading between the lines, it seems to suggest that yes, Flynn still has more information to share. > > Not for nothing does Trump continue to treat Flynn like a Knight of the Royal Order and Cohen like a peasant. I also wonder if this is the reason nobody is upset by the delay in sentencing. It gives Flynn more time and motivation to earn good will from the Mueller team. Win win for everybody except Individual No. 1. > [@Gyrate](#): > > Meanwhile…[bye-bye, Trump Foundation](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-foundation-closes-down-charity-new-york-attorney-corruption-lawsuit-allegations-a8689276.html):I goggled at this:(bolding mine) Ouch, now this investigation is starting to hit Trump where it hurts: his pocket book. I started a [new thread in IMHO](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=867444) about where this money should be sent. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8428 "2018-12-18T19:00:10Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Based on the two statements I bolded above and reading between the lines, it seems to suggest that yes, Flynn still has more information to share. > > Not for nothing does Trump continue to treat Flynn like a Knight of the Royal Order and Cohen like a peasant. I predict that in the new year, Flynn is going to be characterized by Trump as “The worst person ever, I never trusted him, he’s a rat” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8429 "2018-12-18T19:01:00Z")
“The \*best \*people.” ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8430 "2018-12-18T19:06:24Z")
One thing I have concluded: Don’t trust anyone named Mike in Trumpworld. Doesn’t bode well for Pence or Pompeo. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8431 "2018-12-18T19:34:55Z")
Really, guys, isn’t this just a diversion from that time Hillary emailed all of our Uranium to [Vlad69@putin.ru](mailto:Vlad69@putin.ru) in exchange for a $50 donation to the Clinton Foundation? Wake up sheeple! ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8432 "2018-12-18T19:40:17Z")
The difference between pardoning someone for lying to the FBI and pardoning someone for treason is subtle but worth noting. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8433 "2018-12-18T20:31:36Z")
Perhaps I’m mixing up my Trump criminals, but I’m confused. Didn’t Mueller already recommend leniency for Flynn? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8434 "2018-12-18T20:35:38Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Perhaps I’m mixing up my Trump criminals, but I’m confused. Didn’t Mueller already recommend leniency for Flynn? The judge still has the final say. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8435 "2018-12-18T20:38:33Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Perhaps I’m mixing up my Trump criminals, but I’m confused. Didn’t Mueller already recommend leniency for Flynn? Yes, in Meuller’s sentencing memo but then in Flynn’s sentencing memo, he and his lawyers implied that the FBI framed him (A frothy right-wing conspiracy theory). That seems to have annoyed Mueller and really pissed off the judge. Who ordered release of supporting documents - which proved he was not framed. In other words, he lied again - this time to the court. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8436 "2018-12-18T20:45:55Z")
I see. Thanks. What I was confused about was that seemingly Mueller must have been satisfied in order to make such a recommendation. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8437 "2018-12-18T22:10:20Z")
Here is an amazing [account](https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/12/18/judge-sullivan-was-prepared-for-potential-flynn-perjury-and-fraud-on-the-court/) of the Flynn hearing today. > [@bmaz at emptywheel](#): > > There is already simply a ton of discussion on the Flynn proceeding today, I will leave that to others. But there was one little nugget I say from, I think, Glenn Kirshner, as almost a throwaway comment, on MSNBC that Judge Sullivan insisted Mike Flynn be sworn in before proceeding today. I was not really ready to write about this until confirming it from others in the courtroom this morning. I have now received that corroboration from multiple sources. In fact, Judge Sullivan directly said he was doing so because “he was doing basically an extension of the plea colloquy”. Wow!! > > This is fairly notable. Defendants get sworn in for their plea allocution, but not their sentencing. Judge Emmet Sullivan was laying in the weeds for Flynn from moment one. To be specific, here is what I said in a tweet well before the sentencing began regarding Flynn and Kelner having included the right wing nonsense about Flynn being innocent and tricked by the FBI in their sentencing memo: > > > [@bmaz Tweet](#): > > > > “Keep in mind that this argument, if pursued to success, then makes his plea allocution effectively a fraud on the court.” ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8438 "2018-12-18T22:22:46Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > Here is an amazing [account](https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/12/18/judge-sullivan-was-prepared-for-potential-flynn-perjury-and-fraud-on-the-court/) of the Flynn hearing today. Can someone explain the significance of this as if you were talking to an 8-year-old. Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8439 "2018-12-18T22:38:06Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Can someone explain the significance of this as if you were talking to an 8-year-old. Thanks in advance. Flynn was trying to play it both ways (“I’m cooperating, go easy on me” and “bitch set me up!” at the same time) and that was indicated in the memo his defense team submitted for the sentencing hearing. So Judge Sullivan decided to swear Flynn in, which meant that if he stuck to what the defense memo was saying, he was guilty of perjury, because the judge KNEW that Flynn knew that lying to the FBI was criminal in itself. Flynn’s team was trying to not only mitigate the sentencing, but keep him in good odor with Trump in the hopes of a pardon. Note: IANAL. This is my layperson’s understanding, not a professional opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8440 "2018-12-18T22:55:37Z")
What made it even funnier was if you happened to [catch Fox “News” CT Pusher-in-Chief Jeanine Pirro as she gushes away about Judge Sullivan](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HUDXu-2EYE) and what a defender of true justice he is. (Youtube) It gets especially hilarious at 7:56 (and I can’t even tell you how ill it made me to have to listen to that complete load of shit just to get to the last 30 seconds of the clip). Your gorge may rise, but it’s worth a watch. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8441 "2018-12-18T22:58:10Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Can someone explain the significance of this as if you were talking to an 8-year-old. Thanks in advance. I’m not sure if I’m right, but here is my understanding. Flynn pled guilty. Under oath, he admitted his guilt and agreed to take full responsibility for his actions. Prior to sentencing, both sides submit their own sentencing recommendations to the court. This prosecution recommendation generally talks about the heinousness of the crimes and the horribleness of the defendant and how they should be severely punished. The defense recommendation usually talks about the defendants good works and service to his family community country and God, and minimizes the crimes as uncharacteristic lapses in an otherwise saintly life. They recommend a light sentence. In Flynn’s sentencing memos, among other things his lawyers argued that he should get off easy because the FBI agents tricked Flynn into lying by not being mean enough to him during questioning and …hey look over there Peter Strzok was one of the agents and he got in trouble for saying mean things about Trump while having an affair. These are RW-Fox News talking points. Seeing this bullshit in the sentencing memo pissed the judge off. And it seemed to negate Flynn’s under oath admission of total and contrite guilt. Which would mean maybe Flynn was lying under oath then. Which is why the judge wanted him put under oath today. And why the judge was so annoyed. Did I get it right? ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8442 "2018-12-18T23:12:55Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > I’m not sure if I’m right, but here is my understanding. > > Flynn pled guilty. Under oath, he admitted his guilt and agreed to take full responsibility for his actions. > > Prior to sentencing, both sides submit their own sentencing recommendations to the court. This prosecution recommendation generally talks about the heinousness of the crimes and the horribleness of the defendant and how they should be severely punished. > The defense recommendation usually talks about the defendants good works and service to his family community country and God, and minimizes the crimes as uncharacteristic lapses in an otherwise saintly life. They recommend a light sentence. > > In Flynn’s sentencing memos, among other things his lawyers argued that he should get off easy because the FBI agents tricked Flynn into lying by not being mean to him during questioning and …hey look over there Peter Strzok was one of the agents and he got in trouble for saying mean things about Trump while having an affair. These are RW-Fox News talking points. > > Seeing this bullshit in the sentencing memo pissed the judge off. And it seemed to negate Flynn’s under oath admission of total and contrite guilt. Which would mean maybe Flynn was lying under oath then. Which is why the judge wanted him put under oath today. And why the judge was so annoyed. > > Did I get it right? You got it right, as did **jayjay**. IANAL, but I sat through hundreds (maybe thousands) of plea proceedings and sentencing hearings. I am sure that seeing even an ear flicker in the defendant’s sentencing statement that Flynn was somehow hoodwinked into entering his plea made the judge furious. He put Flynn back under oath to put him at risk of perjury if he failed to answer the judge’s questions truthfully; to demonstrate that Flynn was not coerced or in any way induced involuntarily to enter his plea; that Flynn was fully aware he was lying to FBI agents when he was informally interviewed by Strzok, McCabe and Third Unidentified FBI Guy; and that Flynn was aware that lying to the FBI was a crime in the moment when he lied. He also went out of his way to show his immense displeasure with Flynn and his actions, making it plain that he does not see Flynn as any kind of victim. (My guess is he doesn’t think much of Jeanine Pirro, either.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=421) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=423)