# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 438
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8743 "2019-01-04T13:32:53Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > No doubt they’re confident this will work, but I wonder. The mainstream media has been remarkably cautious about assumptions that this is a straightforward ‘innocent American victimized’ story. The gut has a less than honorable discharge from the Marines. That doesn’t sound like government career material, but perhaps it is a cover. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8744 "2019-01-04T13:45:49Z")
I’m reading that he received the dishonorable discharge due to [“Stolen Valor”](https://twitter.com/kelly2277/status/1080611433728172032) reasons. Have yet to verify these claims, though I’ve asked some ppl on Twitter who are good at data-mining to see if they can confirm or deny this. Also, Whelan is apparently of dual [British _and_ US citizenship](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/03/ex-us-marine-accused-of-spying-in-russia-is-british-citizen), so this is now a true international incident. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8745 "2019-01-04T16:05:31Z")
You’re reading that from an online conspiracy theorist whose bio reads: ☄������:comet:I need your support to expose the truth behind the #InfrasonicWeapons attacks on our diplomats and the massive coverup‼️http://gf.me/u/dn4idq …yeahhhh… ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8746 "2019-01-04T16:08:33Z")
Yeah, that’s why I’m asking for independent corroboration. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8747 "2019-01-04T17:34:41Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > No doubt they’re confident this will work, but I wonder. The mainstream media has been remarkably cautious about assumptions that this is a straightforward ‘innocent American victimized’ story. > > Maybe too many people suspect the thing is a set-up, for it to work. If only Trump’s 37% buy it, then it could blow up in their faces. > > Of course if Butina has been handed over and silenced, they may feel it was worth it. But we’re talking real conspiracy, here, maybe. If that’s proven, Trump will have trouble getting Congresspeople to cover for him. I think conspiracy is going to be hard to prove. I’m not even sure that there is one. Putin is perfectly capable of arranging the hostage taking for prisoner exchange on his own without any consultation with the Trump administration. As far as getting Congress to cover for him, her contacts with the NRA and possibly other rightwing entities mean that they want her silenced just as much as Trump does. So they are not about to raise a stink and in the process raise her profile. I think its obvious to everyone, even the Trumpsters that Whelan was taken by the Russians in hopes of exchanging him for Butina. The only question is the extent to which the whitehouse can cover their eagerness to make the exchange. I suspect that they will try to do it as quickly and discretely as possible, maybe making a dramatic crazy policy announcement the same day as the exchange is finalized so as to keep it off the front page. But I can’t rule out Trump tweeting something foolish about how Butina is totally innocent and getting her out of jail and back in her homeland is the right thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8748 "2019-01-04T18:07:31Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > I’m reading that he received the dishonorable discharge due to [“Stolen Valor”](https://twitter.com/kelly2277/status/1080611433728172032) reasons. Have yet to verify these claims, though I’ve asked some ppl on Twitter who are good at data-mining to see if they can confirm or deny this. > > Also, Whelan is apparently of dual [British _and_ US citizenship](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/03/ex-us-marine-accused-of-spying-in-russia-is-british-citizen), so this is now a true international incident. Now this [article](https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0104/1020235-russia/)states that he holds an Irish passport and is also an Irish citizen. Plus, he was born in Canada. > [@](#): > > Canadian-born Paul Whelan is a US citizen and also holds an Irish passport. > > He was arrested while he was in Moscow to attend a wedding. > > The Department of Foreign Affairs said: "The Embassy of Ireland in Moscow has requested consular access to an Irish citizen currently detained in Russia after receiving a request for assistance. > > “The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade will provide all possible and appropriate assistance in relation to this case.” > > Mr Whelan is also a British citizen and is seeking assistance from all embassies of countries of which he is a citizen. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8749 "2019-01-04T18:51:29Z")
Now it’s being reported he has four passports: US, Britain, Ireland, Canada. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8750 "2019-01-04T19:10:51Z")
WAG, Sounds like the Russians picked up a guy they knew about when they needed a prisoner. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8751 "2019-01-04T21:29:48Z")
Not really unexpected, but [Mueller’s grand jury was extended for 6 additional months](https://twitter.com/kpolantz/status/1081289968214048768). ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8752 "2019-01-04T23:14:40Z")
The NY Times has some better-sourced [information](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/04/us/politics/paul-whelan-spy-citizenship.html) about the mysterious background of Mr. Paul Whelan. > [@](#): > > New details also emerged on Friday about Mr. Whelan’s court-martial and bad conduct discharge from the Marine Corps. While deployed to Iraq in 2006, then-Staff Sgt. Whelan was found guilty of attempting to steal $10,410.59 and pass bad checks in an attempt to pay off debt. > > … > Mr. Whelan has a curious profile, not just because he holds four legal passports. He has made repeated visits to Russia, traveling the country by train and using social media to befriend Russians, including people with ties to the military. His multiple passports, while unusual, could simply reflect his love of travel and quirky persona. > > It is highly unlikely that he was working for an American intelligence service, former C.I.A. officers have said. The United States almost never sends its officers into Russia without diplomatic protections, they said. And Mr. Whelan, who works for a global auto parts manufacturer, does not have the kind of business contacts normally of interest to intelligence services. Nothing about Whelan’s alleged attempts to scam extra medals and citations. Here’s his [court-martial conviction](https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthelper/556-paul-whelan-marine-corps-conviction/264e30d8284bc3288897/optimized/full.pdf#page=1). He was busted to E-4 and got a bad conduct discharge. That’s one step above dishonorable. Dude threw away his career all to pay back rent on an apartment and a storage locker. What a mope. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8753 "2019-01-04T23:17:20Z")
Thanks, Friedo! ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2019, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8754 "2019-01-05T00:23:00Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I haven’t been Susan for, jeez, _weeks_ now. Just as a capper to the “Susan” discussion, the late [Whitney Houston](https://youtu.be/r6qsoP75y4Q) beat y’all to it. Regarding Cohen and the Case of the Unburned Cell Phone…has anyone checked to see if his personal cell was pinged in California during this time? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2019, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8755 "2019-01-05T00:42:53Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > No doubt they’re confident this will work, but I wonder. The mainstream media has been remarkably cautious about assumptions that this is a straightforward ‘innocent American victimized’ story. > > Maybe too many people suspect the thing is a set-up, for it to work. If only Trump’s 37% buy it, then it could blow up in their faces. > > Of course if Butina has been handed over and silenced, they may feel it was worth it. But we’re talking real conspiracy, here, maybe. If that’s proven, Trump will have trouble getting Congresspeople to cover for him. > [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I think its obvious to everyone, even the Trumpsters that Whelan was taken by the Russians in hopes of exchanging him for Butina. The only question is the extent to which the whitehouse can cover their eagerness to make the exchange. I suspect that they will try to do it as quickly and discretely as possible, maybe making a dramatic crazy policy announcement the same day as the exchange is finalized so as to keep it off the front page. But I can’t rule out Trump tweeting something foolish about how Butina is totally innocent and getting her out of jail and back in her homeland is the right thing to do. Hell, I haven’t paid a visit to Cloudcuckooland in a while; let me float this one out there. What if the America-hating fuckstick’s administration wants Butina gone so desperately that they fingered Whelan as a potentially indispensable asset/bargaining chip for Putin to pick up and “offer” back to the U.S.? Then it wouldn’t be in the “hopes” of a trade; it would be with the _certainty_ of a trade… ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2019, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8756 "2019-01-05T00:58:54Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Hell, I haven’t paid a visit to Cloudcuckooland in a while; let me float this one out there. > > What if the America-hating fuckstick’s administration wants Butina gone so desperately that they fingered Whelan as a potentially indispensable asset/bargaining chip for Putin to pick up and “offer” back to the U.S.? > > Then it wouldn’t be in the “hopes” of a trade; it would be with the _certainty_ of a trade… :eek: Shit. That sounds just like him. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2019, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8757 "2019-01-05T01:35:14Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Not really unexpected, but [Mueller’s grand jury was extended for 6 additional months](https://twitter.com/kpolantz/status/1081289968214048768). I’m still amazed nothing has leaked from this jury. I can’t say that I would be able to keep my mouth shut. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2019, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8758 "2019-01-05T01:38:58Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Hell, I haven’t paid a visit to Cloudcuckooland in a while; let me float this one out there. > > What if the America-hating fuckstick’s administration wants Butina gone so desperately that they fingered Whelan as a potentially indispensable asset/bargaining chip for Putin to pick up and “offer” back to the U.S.? > > Then it wouldn’t be in the “hopes” of a trade; it would be with the _certainty_ of a trade… That’s the type of thing I was referring to when expressing doubt that Republicans in Congress would rush to defend this—even though, as Buck Godot correctly pointed out, some of them would be very happy, for reasons of saving their own skins, to see Butina silenced. But on the topic of “why Whelan”: _ **It’s dangerous for a government to get a reputation for hostage-taking** _—dangerous to their revenues. Business deals that might have been possible (and lucrative) won’t happen if companies have good reason to fear that a government will use hostage-taking to advance its interests. So a Russophile would be an ideal person to pick up. Such a person—particularly one with a history of financial problems, and who thus is persuadable—might well be willing to make videos to be shown to prospective multinational business partners. For example, such a person could state in a video that he actually volunteered to be charged with espionage, purely because Russia was being treated so very unfairly by certain factions in the US, and this gambit was a way to right that wrong. He could say that he had to play the role of the captive, but of course in reality he was being treated very well by the Russians, who would never ever actually take a hostage, so don’t worry about that! By most accounts, Paul Whelan is indeed quite the Russophile. And, as it turns out, he has a lawyer with connections to the Russian government agency that arrested Whelan: > [@](#): > > Paul Whelan, a U.S. citizen accused of spying who faces 20 years in a Russian prison, is being represented by a former Soviet government investigator who has never before tried an espionage case involving a foreign citizen. > > Russian independent prison monitors and human rights defenders were surprised to hear that Whelan had accepted Vladimir Zherebenkov as his attorney, believing it likely the lawyer was the choice of the same Federal Security Service (FSB) that arrested Whelan in the first place. … [FSB-Friendly Lawyer for Paul Whelan Wants to Trade Him in Deal With U.S.](https://www.thedailybeast.com/russian-lawyer-for-alleged-us-spy-says-lets-make-a-deal-but-not-too-soon) It all seems to fit together so neatly that, I suspect, anyone not a Trump-enabler will be disturbed by the entire situation. That’s a lot of people. So, will we ever find out whether Whelan was cooperative enough to film a ‘don’t worry about Russia using your people as hostages’ video to be shown to potential business partners? Probably not. But it’s clear that it would be a handy thing for Russia to have, and that someone like Whelan might be willing to be useful in such a way. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2019, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8759 "2019-01-05T02:55:49Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > The NY Times has some better-sourced [information](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/04/us/politics/paul-whelan-spy-citizenship.html) about the mysterious background of Mr. Paul Whelan. > > Nothing about Whelan’s alleged attempts to scam extra medals and citations. > > Here’s his [court-martial conviction](https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthelper/556-paul-whelan-marine-corps-conviction/264e30d8284bc3288897/optimized/full.pdf#page=1). > > He was busted to E-4 and got a bad conduct discharge. That’s one step above dishonorable. Dude threw away his career all to pay back rent on an apartment and a storage locker. What a mope. That all said, if you want to send someone as a super secret spy, creating the documentation to give the semblance of being ineligible for the job seems like a reasonable first step. Does the auto company actually exist? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2019, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8760 "2019-01-05T03:25:32Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Hell, I haven’t paid a visit to Cloudcuckooland in a while… Trump’s here now? There goes the neighborhood. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2019, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8761 "2019-01-05T06:44:15Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > The gut has a less than honorable discharge from the Marines. That doesn’t sound like government career material, but perhaps it is a cover. Point of information: Less Than Honorable is a different kind of dicharge than Bad Conduct.The latter is part of a cout-martial sentence. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2019, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8762 "2019-01-05T13:04:49Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Point of information: Less Than Honorable is a different kind of dicharge than Bad Conduct.The latter is part of a cout-martial sentence. Thanks, Monty. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=437) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=439)