# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 446
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2019, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8903 "2019-01-12T23:28:38Z")
WaPo: “Trump has gone to extraordinary lengths to hide details of talks with Putin, such as taking interpreter’s notes, U.S. officials say” > **[Trump has concealed details of his face-to-face encounters with Putin from...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-has-concealed-details-of-his-face-to-face-encounters-with-putin-from-senior-officials-in-administration/2019/01/12/65f6686c-1434-11e9-b6ad-9cfd62dbb0a8_story.html)** > > Aides said there is no substantial record of the president’s meetings with the Russian leader even in classified files, but Trump allies say he has a justified fear of leaks. Late Saturday, Trump denied concealing the meetings. > [@](#): > > The constraints that Trump imposed are part of a broader pattern by the president of shielding his communications with Putin from public scrutiny and preventing even high-ranking officials in his own administration from fully knowing what he has told one of the United States’ main adversaries. > > As a result, U.S. officials said there is no detailed record, even in classified files, of Trump’s face-to-face interactions with the Russian leader at five locations over the past two years. Such a gap would be unusual in any presidency, let alone one that Russia sought to install through what U.S. intelligence agencies have described as an unprecedented campaign of election interference. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2019, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8904 "2019-01-12T23:38:31Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > WaPo: > > “Trump has gone to extraordinary lengths to hide details of talks with Putin, such as taking interpreter’s notes, U.S. officials say” > > [https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/world/national-security/trump-has-concealed-details-of-his-face-to-face-encounters-with-putin-from-senior-officials-in-administration/2019/01/12/65f6686c-1434-11e9-b6ad-9cfd62dbb0a8\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/world/national-security/trump-has-concealed-details-of-his-face-to-face-encounters-with-putin-from-senior-officials-in-administration/2019/01/12/65f6686c-1434-11e9-b6ad-9cfd62dbb0a8_story.html) An alternate explanation is that senior officials are testifying that they were kept in the dark because if they knew and didn’t act they are part of the conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2019, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8905 "2019-01-12T23:51:01Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > WaPo: > > “Trump has gone to extraordinary lengths to hide details of talks with Putin, such as taking interpreter’s notes, U.S. officials say” > > [https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/world/national-security/trump-has-concealed-details-of-his-face-to-face-encounters-with-putin-from-senior-officials-in-administration/2019/01/12/65f6686c-1434-11e9-b6ad-9cfd62dbb0a8\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/world/national-security/trump-has-concealed-details-of-his-face-to-face-encounters-with-putin-from-senior-officials-in-administration/2019/01/12/65f6686c-1434-11e9-b6ad-9cfd62dbb0a8_story.html) An important link. Thanks for sharing it. Those private Putin meetings have been extremely troubling to me. This whole filthy mess has been like trying to hold back a geyser with a manhole cover for the past 2 years. She’s about to blow, and spectacularly. I’m afraid the stinking detritus that rains down on us all for awhile will be worse than [an exploding whale on an Oregon beach](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBgThvB_IDQ). ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2019, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8906 "2019-01-13T00:08:11Z")
Nixon, for all his faults, did not want to send the country into turmoil. Turmoil is exactly what Trump has planned, on the other hand. He will burn the White House to the ground if it helps him one iota. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2019, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8907 "2019-01-13T01:00:54Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by JohnT > > And, in turn, the narrative behind all this will be just as simple: Donald Trump is a guy who did business with Russians for 20+ years, ran for President in 2015, and when his friends said “hey, want some help?”, he naturally replied “Sure! You guys love me!” > > > > It already is the narrative based upon both statements made by Donald, Donald Jr, etc. It’s out there. And this openness can make it hard to see. > > [QFT.](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/07/11/us/politics/donald-trump-jr-email-text.html) > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by Rob Goldstone > > The Crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father Aras this morning and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father. > > > > This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump - helped along by Aras and Emin. > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by Donald Trump, Jr. > > Seems we have some time and if it’s what you say I love it especially later in the summer. Another salient data point: the otherwise-inexplicable change to the Republican Party platform in July 2016: > [@](#): > > President Trump may have been involved with a change to the Republican Party campaign platform last year that watered down support for U.S. assistance to Ukraine, according to new information from someone who was involved. > > … The change to the Ukraine platform in Cleveland has attracted attention because it has raised questions about whether it might have been evidence of communications between Russians and the Trump campaign, or was intended by the Trump team as some kind of a signal to the Russians about their willingness to accommodate them. [2016 RNC Delegate: Trump Directed Change To Party Platform On Ukraine Support : NPR](https://www.npr.org/2017/12/04/568310790/2016-rnc-delegate-trump-directed-change-to-party-platform-on-ukraine-support) ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2019, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8908 "2019-01-13T01:13:11Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > An important link. Thanks for sharing it. Those private Putin meetings have been extremely troubling to me. With Trump being an idiot, we sort of know at least some of the details of some of his meetings. When he first met Putin at G8, he talked to him “about adoptions” and then later in the day, on the plane back to the US, penned the coverup story about the Veselnitskaya meeting. So we can reasonably infer that he was talking with Putin about the Veselnitskaya meeting. When Trump came back from Helsinki, he mentioned reconsidering the membership of Montenegro in NATO, letting Russia deal with North Korea, and a few other things which I don’t recall at the moment. But principally, they seem to have discussed trading Montenegro for peace in Korea. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2019, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8909 "2019-01-13T01:25:24Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > WaPo: > > “Trump has gone to extraordinary lengths to hide details of talks with Putin, such as taking interpreter’s notes, U.S. officials say” > > [https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/world/national-security/trump-has-concealed-details-of-his-face-to-face-encounters-with-putin-from-senior-officials-in-administration/2019/01/12/65f6686c-1434-11e9-b6ad-9cfd62dbb0a8\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/world/national-security/trump-has-concealed-details-of-his-face-to-face-encounters-with-putin-from-senior-officials-in-administration/2019/01/12/65f6686c-1434-11e9-b6ad-9cfd62dbb0a8_story.html) To steal a comment I saw: “Would you want _your_ job performances reviews made public?” ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2019, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8910 "2019-01-13T01:32:24Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > … he mentioned reconsidering the membership of Montenegro in NATO, letting Russia deal with North Korea, and a few other things which I don’t recall at the moment. But principally, they seem to have discussed trading Montenegro for peace in Korea. A week or 2 back, Rachel Maddow did a piece on the weird and inexplicable intersections of Trump and Montenegro…like the above, or the time in an interview he randomly interjected how belligerent Montenegrans are and how they could drag us into WW III. (Capped off with video of Trump shoving aside the Montenegro Prime Minister at his first G8.) ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2019, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8911 "2019-01-13T01:59:48Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > A week or 2 back, Rachel Maddow did a piece on the weird and inexplicable intersections of Trump and Montenegro…like the above, or the time in an interview he randomly interjected how belligerent Montenegrans are and how they could drag us into WW III. (Capped off with video of Trump shoving aside the Montenegro Prime Minister at his first G8.) Yeah, I saw that. Putin didn’t want Montenegro joining NATO. And with Trump’s recent defense of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in '79, he’s basically acting as Putin’s spokes-tool. I mean, Trump probably couldn’t find Alaska on a map without help. What the hell would he know about Montenegro? Probably thought it was a Vegas casino. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2019, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8912 "2019-01-13T02:20:31Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > I mean, Trump probably couldn’t find Alaska on a map without help. What the hell would he know about Montenegro? Probably thought it was a Vegas casino. It’s got “negro” right in the name; what more does he need to know? ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2019, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8913 "2019-01-13T02:50:21Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > It’s got “negro” right in the name; what more does he need to know? A whole mountain of negroes! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2019, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8914 "2019-01-13T03:01:39Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > What the hell would he know about Montenegro? The fruit was poisoned. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2019, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8915 "2019-01-13T03:13:36Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > A week or 2 back, Rachel Maddow did a piece on the weird and iinexplicable intersections of Trump and Montenegro…like the above, or the time in an interview he randomly interjected how belligerent Montenegrans are and how they could drag us into WW III. I’m tired of quoting Bismarck, who predicted WWI would be caused by “some damned foolish thing in the Balkins.” I don’t want it to be usable describing WWIII. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2019, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8916 "2019-01-13T05:19:34Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > To steal a comment I saw: > > “Would you want _your_ job performances reviews made public?” Nice. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2019, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8917 "2019-01-13T07:30:53Z")
“Well, shit, Montenegro, that’s all you had to say!” - Samuel L. Jackson ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2019, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8918 "2019-01-13T11:50:57Z")
The notion of Trump actually defecting is starting to look less outlandish and more like a credible possibility. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2019, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8919 "2019-01-13T12:20:53Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I would endorse the idea of Ivanka as an NFL quarterback. > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Hell, I’d buy season tickets… but I suspect she wouldn’t make it out of Game 1. You got it all wrong. Donny Two-scoops as QB for an NFL all-star team vs. whatever team it was that led in sacks this season. With all that anthem-kneeling bullshit I’m sure they’d be proud as punch to protect their quarterback. “How many fingers am I holding up?” “Uh, three?” “Close enough; send 'im back in!” ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2019, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8920 "2019-01-13T12:27:49Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > The notion of Trump actually defecting is starting to look less outlandish and more like a credible possibility. I think that Trump had a certain period of time in which he could have stood down from office and, possibly, all of the various investigations would have been allowed to go dormant under a President Pence, leaving him sitting free. But Trump is a narcissist and loves risk-taking, and now his options are to live as the most hated man in America, in an American prison, or to flee the country and try to live in splendor. He _will_ make a run for it. But, since he’s a narcissist and a risk taker, he’ll try to maintain his position as the President of the United States of America for every extra moment that he thinks that he can get away with it. So while he could just leave right now and he’d be clear and free, and we wouldn’t be able to stop him, we do have at least some chance of actually grabbing him, since he has a history of playing it too risky and going off a cliff. He’s liable to wait too long and trust too much to his own cleverness to stop the process, somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2019, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8921 "2019-01-13T13:03:58Z")
Yes… my notion on him defecting to Russia is based on the idea that if there really is something highly criminal for the investigation to find, Trump is impulsive and does not seem to think things through.He generally has no filter on doing massively stupid stuff on impulse. Putins probably promised him he’ll have his back. So if he panics he may well bolt for it. Against it is the fact that hes gotten away with everything he has ever done with no consequences. He may not have the imagination to realize that consequences may happen. If he does, what happens after will be interesting in a “may you live in interesting times” sense. I think there will be frantic backpedalling away from Trump by all who can, especially in politics. I have a problem seeing Pence or anyone that close to him being trusted with any sensitive position. Russia - Us relations would be… tense. But if Putin kept Trump, Trump may broadcast speeches claiming it was a coup. And a lot of people who had emotional investment in Trump or against the US would believe it. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2019, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/8922 "2019-01-13T19:41:59Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > An alternate explanation is that senior officials are testifying that they were kept in the dark because if they knew and didn’t act they are part of the conspiracy. Can they act? If The president of the united states tells senior officials that the information about the Putin and US joint exercise to nuke California is classified, would they not be subject to severe legal ramifications? Not that it would’t be the right thing to do, of course, but they may not have much room to move legally either way. What about that translator, what happens if he “tells all”? > [@dasmoocher](#): > > Yeah, I saw that. Putin didn’t want Montenegro joining NATO. And with Trump’s recent defense of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in '79, he’s basically acting as Putin’s spokes-tool. > > I mean, Trump probably couldn’t find Alaska on a map without help. What the hell would he know about Montenegro? Probably thought it was a Vegas casino. I’m sure that Putin would be happy to help Trump find Alaska on the map of newly acquired neo-soviet territory. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I think that Trump had a certain period of time in which he could have stood down from office and, possibly, all of the various investigations would have been allowed to go dormant under a President Pence, leaving him sitting free. Yeah, that time ended at noon, January 20th, 2017. > [@](#): > > But Trump is a narcissist and loves risk-taking, and now his options are to live as the most hated man in America, in an American prison, or to flee the country and try to live in splendor. He _will_ make a run for it. > > But, since he’s a narcissist and a risk taker, he’ll try to maintain his position as the President of the United States of America for every extra moment that he thinks that he can get away with it. So while he could just leave right now and he’d be clear and free, and we wouldn’t be able to stop him, we do have at least some chance of actually grabbing him, since he has a history of playing it too risky and going off a cliff. He’s liable to wait too long and trust too much to his own cleverness to stop the process, somehow. The only question is, and I don’t know the answer to this at all, is whether he cares enough about his family to take them down with him as well. It is slightly possible that he will see the damage he will do to even the ones who are not involved, and decide to back off and step down. Then there is the possibility that he doesn’t give a fuck about anyone, even his family, and he will ruin them as he desperately tries to claw his way out of the hole he is still digging. Serious question, do you think he gives a shit about them? > [@Grim\_Render](#): > > Yes… my notion on him defecting to Russia is based on the idea that if there really is something highly criminal for the investigation to find, Trump is impulsive and does not seem to think things through.He generally has no filter on doing massively stupid stuff on impulse. Putins probably promised him he’ll have his back. So if he panics he may well bolt for it. Against it is the fact that hes gotten away with everything he has ever done with no consequences. He may not have the imagination to realize that consequences may happen. > > If he does, what happens after will be interesting in a “may you live in interesting times” sense. I think there will be frantic backpedalling away from Trump by all who can, especially in politics. I have a problem seeing Pence or anyone that close to him being trusted with any sensitive position. Russia - Us relations would be… tense. But if Putin kept Trump, Trump may broadcast speeches claiming it was a coup. And a lot of people who had emotional investment in Trump or against the US would believe it. I think that after Trump defects to Russia, his age catches up with him surprisingly quickly, and he dies with absolutely no suspicion, allowing his followers to follow him in spirit, but not in tweet. He will be far more useful to Putin as a martyr than as a president in exile, and I think that Putin would be happy to arrange that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=445) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=447)