# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/901 "2017-12-01T18:00:22Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > (Anybody else suspect a not-so-subtle allusion to some other flowing “stream” upon the bed of a Moscow hotel room? 😛 ) I doubt it. He said three weeks back that that verse was his favorite verse in the Bible. ([Scroll back to his November 11 tweets.](https://twitter.com/Comey)) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/902 "2017-12-01T18:08:40Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > It will be some version of 5. Their audience doesn’t watch “fake media”. They are also covered by the few voices over there that do call out Trump. They can point to “warning signs” that Trump wasn’t a true believer from their own “real” media. > > I was hoping this would drag out longer at one point, for various reasons. Now I want Trump gone ASAP, before he starts a nuclear conflict. I hope this means the end is getting closer. Yeah, pretty much. Though they don’t have to say “no one.” They can just say that the MSM lies so often that people didn’t believe them. Nevermind that most of the supposed lies for the past couple of years have been the bad stuff about Trump. That won’t matter to their audience. They’ll also start pulling out the few times they’ve been hard on Trump, and push a narrative that they’ve actually been hard on Trump. After a while, that narrative will fly, too. They always do this with scandals of any kind where they first defend the Republican and later condemn them. Their audience has bought into the worldview hook, line, and sinker. They just need a little prodding to overcome their cognitive dissonance. Getting rid of Trump may alleviate the pressure for now, but our problem with “alternative facts” is not over. Not by a long shot. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/903 "2017-12-01T18:22:00Z")
[ABC News tweet](https://twitter.com/ABC/status/936628560374071296): > [@](#): > > JUST IN: @BrianRoss on @ABC News Special Report: Michael Flynn promised “full cooperation to the Mueller team” and is prepared to testify that as a candidate, Donald Trump “directed him to make contact with the Russians.” [http://abcn.ws/2AhU3Iq](http://abcn.ws/2AhU3Iq) The ABC announcer in a video at the link adds that Flynn “has promised full cooperation to the Mueller team. He is prepared to testify, we are told by a confidant, **against President Trump, against members of the Trump family and others in the White House.** He is prepared to testify that President Trump, **as a candidate** , Donald Trump, ordered him and directed him to make contacts with the Russians, which contradicts all that Donald Trump has said at this point.” ETA: Bolding (mine). ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/904 "2017-12-01T18:22:38Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Getting rid of Trump may alleviate the pressure for now, but our problem with “alternative facts” is not over. Not by a long shot. If there is a thorough and appropriate ridiculing of Trumpco customers, then perhaps for a generation or two, alternative facts will be beaten back. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/905 "2017-12-01T18:42:17Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > If there is a thorough and appropriate ridiculing of Trumpco customers, then perhaps for a generation or two, alternative facts will be beaten back. From your lips to Og’s ears. If the Trump era of alternative facts could be viewed in the same light that McCarthyism is viewed today I would sleep much easier at night. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/906 "2017-12-01T18:49:47Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Getting rid of Trump may alleviate the pressure for now, but our problem with “alternative facts” is not over. Not by a long shot. This is [The Onion](https://www.theonion.com/fox-news-struggling-to-attract-younger-60-75-demographi-1820392371?utm_content=Main&utm_campaign=SF&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=SocialMarketing), but there’s a certain amount of truth to it: > [@](#): > > “Despite pulling big numbers with the 76-to-90 crowd, there’s a lot more we can do to draw in that coveted 60-to-75 audience,” said Fox News acting CEO Rupert Murdoch, adding that the company’s long-term health was in jeopardy if it didn’t revitalize its aging viewer base by appealing to younger, more hip seniors. We do have a problem with an alternative media (Fox News, wingnut talk radio, sites like Breitbart and InfoWars) that spins an alternate version of reality. But at least for the TV and radio parts of that agglomeration (I have no idea about the websites, but can’t imagine that it would be drastically different), the audience is old and getting older - makes us Dopers look young by comparison. [Half of Fox News viewers are over 68.](https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/08/the-twilight-of-fox-news/497684/) As their audience gets even older (and increasingly dies or moves to nursing homes due to dementia), its effect on our politics should diminish. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/907 "2017-12-01T18:52:46Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > As their audience gets even older (and increasingly dies or moves to nursing homes due to dementia), its effect on our politics should diminish. Assuming the current 50-year-olds don’t turn deplorable as they age, like the last generation. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/908 "2017-12-01T19:03:42Z")
[From the WaPo:](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/michael-flynn-charged-with-making-false-statement-to-the-fbi/2017/12/01/e03a6c48-d6a2-11e7-9461-ba77d604373d_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-banner-high_flynn-937am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.313850708f1f) > [@](#): > > court records indicate [Flynn] was acting under instructions from senior Trump transition officials in his dealings with the diplomat. There’s really only one ‘senior Trump transition official’ that Flynn might’ve taken instructions from, AFAICT, and that’s Mike Pence. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/909 "2017-12-01T19:05:30Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Yeah, pretty much. Though they don’t have to say “no one.” They can just say that the MSM lies so often that people didn’t believe them. Nevermind that most of the supposed lies for the past couple of years have been the bad stuff about Trump. That won’t matter to their audience. > > They’ll also start pulling out the few times they’ve been hard on Trump, and push a narrative that they’ve actually been hard on Trump. After a while, that narrative will fly, too. They always do this with scandals of any kind where they first defend the Republican and later condemn them. > > Their audience has bought into the worldview hook, line, and sinker. They just need a little prodding to overcome their cognitive dissonance. They could even spin this whole Trump presidency as a result of the Democrats. “Democrats and union members in blue states like Michigan and Wisconsin elected this criminal. Trump was never a Republican, and those voters knew it, that’s why all those lefties pulled the lever for him.” ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/910 "2017-12-01T19:13:35Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > They could even spin this whole Trump presidency as a result of the Democrats. “Democrats and union members in blue states like Michigan and Wisconsin elected this criminal. Trump was never a Republican, and those voters knew it, that’s why all those lefties pulled the lever for him.” and all the Trumpies out there would buy it. Why not? [ul] [li]It’s a fucking lie[/li][li]It gets them out of any responsibility[/li][li]It puts the blame on commie libruls[/li][li]It makes someone else a bunch of traitors instead of them[/li][/ul] Four good reasons for them to embrace it ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/911 "2017-12-01T19:14:15Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > [From the WaPo:](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/michael-flynn-charged-with-making-false-statement-to-the-fbi/2017/12/01/e03a6c48-d6a2-11e7-9461-ba77d604373d_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-banner-high_flynn-937am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.313850708f1f)There’s really only one ‘senior Trump transition official’ that Flynn might’ve taken instructions from, AFAICT, and that’s Mike Pence. That’s what I think, too. I hope Pence get rolled up before they get to Trump. Really sick of this lie that Pence – who was the chairman of the PTT – knew absolutely nothing about Flynn or Sally Yates’ warning. I also worry about Pence pardoning Trump. I detest Ryan, but I don’t think he’d do it. Pence might. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/912 "2017-12-01T19:16:07Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Fox News tries to put a positive spin on it. > [Special counsel charges Gen. Michael Flynn with making false statements to FBI; plea imminent.](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/12/01/michael-flynn-charged-in-special-counsels-russia-investigation.html) > The accompanying picture of the Mueller and Flynn says: **Mueller Gets His Man** > **No, sorry, Mueller is _not_ stopping with Flynn.** Oh, no way Meuller is stopping there. It is more likely he is letting Flynn off easy with only one charge, to get to the rest of the traitorous bastards. Flynn will, or has already, flipped. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/913 "2017-12-01T19:16:34Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > [From the WaPo:](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/michael-flynn-charged-with-making-false-statement-to-the-fbi/2017/12/01/e03a6c48-d6a2-11e7-9461-ba77d604373d_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-banner-high_flynn-937am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.313850708f1f)There’s really only one ‘senior Trump transition official’ that Flynn might’ve taken instructions from, AFAICT, and that’s Mike Pence. OK, [it may have been Jared.](https://www.buzzfeed.com/aramroston/it-was-kushner-who-told-flynn-to-make-calls-about-israel-un?utm_term=.tiYggAYGJR#.sim991L4o0) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/914 "2017-12-01T19:17:38Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > But at least for the TV and radio parts of that agglomeration (I have no idea about the websites, but can’t imagine that it would be drastically different), the audience is old and getting older - makes us Dopers look young by comparison. Then you are unacquainted with the alt-right. The whole point of it is is bringing in the youth. There’s a reason it recruits from places like 4chan. It is a reinvigoration of the right for a younger generation. Same with places like /r/the\_donald. Those aren’t old people. I also continue to notice that the TV stations get new old people watching them. People who were never political before seem jump on the TV train. I genuinely think we have a huge setback, and that the best that getting rid of Trump could do is get us back where we were. But, more likely, ignorance made some huge gains. There will be someone else who comes along to exploit this, without Trump’s baggage. Don’t get me wrong. I remain optimistic that we will win the fight. I just don’t want people thinking that stopping Trump does anything but add in a delay. I don’t want people going back to what we thought before, that the fight was over and we only need to wait for the bad guys to die off. Until the right actually starts embracing diversity and repudiating even things that seem racist, the war will continue. I’d love to believe this was their last all-in final battle, but the problem is that they won a battle. So they will try again. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/915 "2017-12-01T19:24:20Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > OK, [it may have been Jared.](https://www.buzzfeed.com/aramroston/it-was-kushner-who-told-flynn-to-make-calls-about-israel-un?utm_term=.tiYggAYGJR#.sim991L4o0) That makes Jared the Very Senior PTT official referred to in the Flynn Statement of Offense. I wonder who the mere Senior PTT official was? ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/916 "2017-12-01T19:24:57Z")
[Judge Nap on FoxNews:](http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/12/01/michael-flynn-guilty-plea-judge-napolitano-monumental-reduction-charges-doesnt-come-free) > [@](#): > > ‘Monumental’ Reduction of Charges Doesn’t Come for Free ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/917 "2017-12-01T19:26:02Z")
It’s still not quite clear what Trump asked Flynn to do for or say to the Russian government. I’ve no doubt that he was a Trump-endorsed go-between, but I’m not sure what any of this is supposed to mean legally. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/918 "2017-12-01T19:26:19Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > OK, [it may have been Jared.](https://www.buzzfeed.com/aramroston/it-was-kushner-who-told-flynn-to-make-calls-about-israel-un?utm_term=.tiYggAYGJR#.sim991L4o0) Reports that it was Trump himself. Notable that this report is from [Foxnews](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/12/01/michael-flynn-charged-in-special-counsels-russia-investigation.html). \*"Court documents show Flynn has told investigators a “very senior member” of the Trump transition team directed him to contact foreign governments including Russia over a United Nations vote – discussions tied to one of Flynn’s false statements. While it is unclear who Flynn himself is prepared to name, Fox News has been told by a former senior intelligence officer with knowledge of Trump transition activities that then-President-Elect Trump directed Flynn during that period to contact the Russians – while also directing him and his team to contact 12 other countries."\* Also, [reporting](https://twitter.com/KatieBoWill/status/936667579900465152) that Kushner wasn’t present on the day of this call. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/919 "2017-12-01T19:33:23Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Then you are unacquainted with the alt-right. The whole point of it is is bringing in the youth. There’s a reason it recruits from places like 4chan. It is a reinvigoration of the right for a younger generation. Same with places like /r/the\_donald. Those aren’t old people. And their numbers are…? Just because the alt-right is aimed at young people doesn’t mean there are tens of millions of young alt-rightists. Look, I know a decent number of young evangelicals - that happens when you marry into a Southern Baptist family. But that doesn’t change the fact that there are a lot more old evangelicals than young evangelicals, and that their representation in younger cohorts is a lot thinner now than it was 30-40 years ago. So just because there are young alt-right types, doesn’t mean there are enough of them to be a political force. > [@](#): > > I also continue to notice that the TV stations get new old people watching them. People who were never political before seem jump on the TV train. I don’t buy that. It’s easy to see why formerly rational conservatives started watching Fox News when it was new, and got hooked by its world view. But Fox News has been around for \>20 years now. By and large, 60 year olds who haven’t been watching Fox News for the past 20 years aren’t going to start watching it when they hit 65 or 70. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/920 "2017-12-01T19:34:20Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Reports that it was Trump himself. Notable that this report is from [Foxnews](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/12/01/michael-flynn-charged-in-special-counsels-russia-investigation.html). > > \*"Court documents show Flynn has told investigators a “very senior member” of the Trump transition team directed him to contact foreign governments including Russia over a United Nations vote – discussions tied to one of Flynn’s false statements. > > While it is unclear who Flynn himself is prepared to name, Fox News has been told by a former senior intelligence officer with knowledge of Trump transition activities that then-President-Elect Trump directed Flynn during that period to contact the Russians – while also directing him and his team to contact 12 other countries."\* > > Also, [reporting](https://twitter.com/KatieBoWill/status/936667579900465152) that Kushner wasn’t present on the day of this call. Someone at ABC had the same info – that Trump was the one who directed Flynn to contact the Russians. Meanwhile, I see a news item where the WH has cancelled a scheduled photop op in the Oval Office with Trump and the Libyan PM. Guess he isn’t up to talking to the media right now. Ever truthful and honest, paragons of integrity that this bunch are, his handlers are now telling reporters that there never was a photo op scheduled and it was all a mistake. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=47)