# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 484
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/9663 "2019-02-22T16:02:42Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > My two favorite bits: > > The judge telling Stone, “You appear to need clear boundaries. So there they are." > > And the sign held by someone outside the courthouse that read, “This is a sign.” My favorite bit: > [@](#): > > From the witness stand Thursday, Stone insisted that he didn’t realize the crosshairs were in the photo until a reporter contacted him. He also explained that the crosshairs were actually a Celtic cross “occult symbol” but that he didn’t know that until after it was posted. > > Under questioning by Jackson about what the symbol meant, Stone replied: “I don’t know, Your Honor. I’m not into the occult.” Yeah, because those Celts, we know they were into high-powered rifle scopes in pre-Roman Britain. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/9664 "2019-02-22T16:28:46Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > My favorite bit: > > Yeah, because those Celts, we know they were into high-powered rifle scopes in pre-Roman Britain. :rolleyes: …for all the good it did them… ---
**Author:** ![Celidin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Celidin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celidin)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/9665 "2019-02-22T17:45:37Z")
Well, on the topic of Mueller passing things around to the states to make them pardon-proof: [New York Prosecutors Expected to Charge Manafort, Guarding Against Trump Pardon](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/22/nyregion/manafort-pardon-trump.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes) ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/9666 "2019-02-22T18:35:25Z")
Member when Cyrus Vance used to run interference for Trump and Kushner and got criminal charges against them dropped? I member. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/9667 "2019-02-22T18:46:31Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > The judge telling Stone, “You appear to need clear boundaries. So there they are." I’m thinking Individual-One’s Steel Slat Barrier concept would be just the ticket… maybe nice thin round slats… ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/9668 "2019-02-22T19:15:14Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > …States of New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Florida, California and no doubt others, all have a piece of Mueller’s work if it falls within their jurisdictions in any way… Washington, D.C. and Maryland are moving forward on the civil front, too: [D.C. and Maryland v. Trump - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D.C._and_Maryland_v._Trump) ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/9669 "2019-02-22T21:57:43Z")
[A good opinion piece from Slate](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/02/mueller-trump-russia-report-ghost.html) about a likely outcome from the Mueller report: only what people are willing to do with the information. It’s not going to contain much, if anything, we don’t already know. It’s not going to say “Trump should be in jail.” Somehow, it manages to be both depressing and uplifting at the same time. > [@](#): > > This very human hope that Mueller will package up the case for legal action is perhaps most troubling because Mueller’s report won’t be an action plan; it will be a set of facts that then need to be _acted upon_. > … > We want Mueller to be both the guy who knows everything and the guy who does everything. It obviates anyone else from needing to know what we already know and do what needs doing. But going into the next few fateful days, my sense is that we might want to stop investing too much hope in great men, and superheroes, and saviors. Instead, we should remember that it is our job to insist that we, and our public officials, must be the Muellers we hope to see in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2019, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/9670 "2019-02-23T20:32:03Z")
[Mueller: Manafort ‘brazenly violated the law’ for years](https://apnews.com/73ea05874b14439996546df7c8eebc03) > [@](#): > > Former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort committed crimes that cut to “the heart of the criminal justice system” and over the years deceived everyone from bookkeepers and banks to federal prosecutors and “members of the executive branch of the United States government,” according to a sentencing memo filed Saturday by special counsel Robert Mueller’s office. > > The memo, in one of two criminal cases Manafort faces, does not take a position on how much prison time he should serve or whether the punishment should run at the same time or after a separate sentence he will soon receive in a Virginia prosecution. But it does depict Manafort as a longtime and unrepentant criminal who committed “bold” crimes, including under the spotlight of his role as campaign chairman and later while on bail, **and who does not deserve any leniency**. > > “For over a decade, Manafort repeatedly and brazenly violated the law,” prosecutors wrote. “His crimes continued up through the time he was first indicted in October 2017 and remarkably went unabated even after indictment.” > > Citing Manafort’s lies to the FBI, several government agencies and his own lawyer, prosecutors said that “upon release from jail, Manafort presents a grave risk of recidivism.” I bolded and highlighted my favorite part. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2019, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/9671 "2019-02-23T21:16:11Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Member when Cyrus Vance used to run interference for Trump and Kushner and got criminal charges against them dropped? > > I member. Cyrus Vance Jr.? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2019, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/9672 "2019-02-23T21:25:40Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [Mueller: Manafort ‘brazenly violated the law’ for years](https://apnews.com/73ea05874b14439996546df7c8eebc03)I bolded and highlighted my favorite part. 😃 “For over a decade, Manafort repeatedly and brazenly violated the law,” prosecutors wrote. “His crimes continued up through the time he was first indicted in October 2017 and remarkably went unabated even after indictment.” “In fact,” they continued, “that candy that he is eating right now he just stole from a baby in the hallway.” [/onion] ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2019, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/9673 "2019-02-23T21:30:28Z")
Baby was wearing a wire. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2019, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/9674 "2019-02-23T22:05:00Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > Cyrus Vance Jr.? [Yes](https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/why-didnt-manhattan-da-cyrus-vance-prosecute-the-trumps-or-harvey-weinstein). ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/9675 "2019-02-24T01:33:19Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [Mueller: Manafort ‘brazenly violated the law’ for years](https://apnews.com/73ea05874b14439996546df7c8eebc03)I bolded and highlighted my favorite part. 😃 Here is the entire document. Wow. It’s awesome. They’ve had their eye on Manafort for decades— no wonder the intelligence agencies flipped out when he showed up on Team Trump. > **[Government sentencing memo in Paul Manafort's DC case](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5747657-Government-sentencing-memo-in-Paul-Manafort-s-DC.html)** > > A sentencing memo filed by special counsel Robert Mueller's team in the criminal case of former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort. This document goes into great detail about Manafort’s political crimes, like his complicity in the incarceration of a political opponent even though he knew it wasn’t justified. And it outlines several specific efforts on the part of Manafort to manipulate US politicians in matters concerning Ukraine. It makes it crystal clear that these were really serious crimes. And it certainly depicts Manafort as a career criminal that will find a way to break the law if you as much as let him go to the bathroom by himself. So, the much awaited Mueller Report is coming soon. I suppose that it’s possible that they will find that Manafort inexplicably went “straight” during the time that he worked for Trump. Perhaps they will find that he never attempted to use any of his foreign connections on Trump’s behalf. Perhaps they will find that all his dealings with regards to the Trump campaign were legitimate and aboveboard. They may even attribute this to Trump’s strong moral leadership and the fact that his campaign staff ran a tight, well-organized and ethical shop. Or maybe they will find otherwise. Time will tell. But the one thing that this document makes clear is that they aren’t going to handwave away any crimes. I’ve been lowering my expectations for the Mueller Report, but this gave me a flash of optimism. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/9676 "2019-02-24T01:40:56Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > … But the one thing that this document makes clear is that they aren’t going to handwave away any crimes. I’ve been lowering my expectations for the Mueller Report, but this gave me a flash of optimism. Thank you for that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/9677 "2019-02-24T03:17:26Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > Here is the entire document. Wow. It’s awesome. They’ve had their eye on Manafort for decades— no wonder the intelligence agencies flipped out when he showed up on Team Trump. > > [DocumentCloud](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5747657-Government-sentencing-memo-in-Paul-Manafort-s-DC.html) > > This document goes into great detail about Manafort’s political crimes, like his complicity in the incarceration of a political opponent even though he knew it wasn’t justified. And it outlines several specific efforts on the part of Manafort to manipulate US politicians in matters concerning Ukraine. It makes it crystal clear that these were really serious crimes. And it certainly depicts Manafort as a career criminal that will find a way to break the law if you as much as let him go to the bathroom by himself. > > So, the much awaited Mueller Report is coming soon. I suppose that it’s possible that they will find that Manafort inexplicably went “straight” during the time that he worked for Trump. Perhaps they will find that he never attempted to use any of his foreign connections on Trump’s behalf. Perhaps they will find that all his dealings with regards to the Trump campaign were legitimate and aboveboard. They may even attribute this to Trump’s strong moral leadership and the fact that his campaign staff ran a tight, well-organized and ethical shop. > > Or maybe they will find otherwise. Time will tell. But the one thing that this document makes clear is that they aren’t going to handwave away any crimes. I’ve been lowering my expectations for the Mueller Report, but this gave me a flash of optimism. Thanks for the link. I think I heard the unredacted version is around 800 (!!!) pages. I’ve never doubted that Mueller will deliver, one way or another. He has pushed his people to the brink and they have worked at a feverish pace for the past 2 years. If there had been no “there” there, this investigation would have been over in 6 months. It wasn’t. And Mueller always gets his man. I’m leaning toward the “roadmap” theory of Mueller’s report, knowing for a long time how he has distributed his workload across the country. It wouldn’t surprise me if, on the day he delivers his report, a lot of indictments are unsealed, arrest warrants issued and executed – with state charges held in abeyance as insurance policies against pardons, of course. I think it was Neal Katyal who described this as not the beginning of the end, but merely the end of the beginning. We’ll soon see. Delicious, if it happens. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/9678 "2019-02-24T03:39:45Z")
I liked this analysis iof how exactly the Judge imposed the gag order on Stone to be interesting. Even his lawyer sounds quite stupid: > **[How Amy Berman Jackson Got Roger Stone to Step in It and Then Step in It Again...](https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/02/22/how-amy-berman-jackson-got-roger-stone-to-step-in-it-and-then-step-in-it-again/)** > > Amy Berman Jackson used yesterday's hearing to do what virtually no one has ever done with Roger Stone: establish that his language is not harmless and fun, but instead a danger to society. And -- to the surprise of both the defense and the... (I apologize if its already been posted) ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/9679 "2019-02-24T04:00:36Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > I liked this analysis iof how exactly the Judge imposed the gag order on Stone to be interesting. Even his lawyer sounds quite stupid: > > [How Amy Berman Jackson Got Roger Stone to Step in It and Then Step in It Again - emptywheel](https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/02/22/how-amy-berman-jackson-got-roger-stone-to-step-in-it-and-then-step-in-it-again/) > > **(I apologize if its already been posted)** **raventhief** , it wasn’t so far as I saw, and even if it was, thanks for bringing it to our attention. It was a good read – as was also her analysis of Mueller’s choice to submit a less fulsome sentencing memorandum. It bears out my thinking on the matter, so maybe that’s why I like it so well. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/9680 "2019-02-24T04:26:02Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > I liked this analysis iof how exactly the Judge imposed the gag order on Stone to be interesting. Even his lawyer sounds quite stupid: > > [How Amy Berman Jackson Got Roger Stone to Step in It and Then Step in It Again - emptywheel](https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/02/22/how-amy-berman-jackson-got-roger-stone-to-step-in-it-and-then-step-in-it-again/) > > (I apologize if its already been posted) Dunno that I’d say Stone’s lawyer sounds stupid (after all, the DC prosecutor also didn’t catch on to the goal that ABJ was herding Stone towards); ABJ just executed her strategy masterfully. It was a pleasure to read, and I thank you for linking to it. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/9681 "2019-02-24T05:00:58Z")
The part that made me chortle a little is the repeated use of “clear and present danger” as applying to situations that it has never been applied to. Like he thought he could invent a new standard and then the judge said (paraphrasing wildly and princess-bridely) “You keep using that phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means.” I am sure he is not actually stupid, but the judge certainly made him resemble it a bit. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/9682 "2019-02-24T19:43:06Z")
From _The Washington Post_, [House Democrats will subpoena Mueller if report is not made public, Schiff says](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/house-democrats-will-subpoena-mueller-if-report-is-not-made-public-schiff-says/2019/02/24/0a0dc906-3841-11e9-a2cd-307b06d0257b_story.html?utm_term=.b6bc5e281df0): > [@](#): > > Rep. Adam B. Schiff (D-Calif.) said Sunday that House Democrats will subpoena special counsel Robert S. Mueller III to testify before Congress if his report on Russian interference in the 2016 election is not made public. > > Schiff, chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, said on ABC News’s “This Week” that Democrats will also subpoena Mueller’s report and are prepared to go to court against the Trump administration. So, no, the report will _NOT_ be quietly buried. Whatever Mueller finds, we will god-damn well find out! (Adam Schiff is Chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=483) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=485)