# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 501
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/10003 "2019-03-13T19:00:27Z")
The judges also ruled that Manafort was not involved in the Lindbergh kidnapping. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/10004 "2019-03-13T19:08:43Z")
[New York charges Manafort with 16 counts](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/13/nyregion/manafort-indictment.html). > [@Failing NY Times](#): > > Paul J. Manafort, President Trump’s former campaign chairman, has been charged in New York with mortgage fraud and more than a dozen other state felonies, the Manhattan district attorney, Cyrus R. Vance, Jr., said Wednesday, an effort to ensure he will still face prison time if Mr. Trump pardons him for his federal crimes. > > News of the indictment came shortly after Mr. Manafort was sentenced to his second federal prison term in two weeks; he now faces a combined sentence of more than seven years for tax and bank fraud and conspiracy in two related cases brought by the special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/10005 "2019-03-13T19:18:05Z")
I must have stuttered in post #9989. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/10006 "2019-03-13T19:18:17Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > [New York charges Manafort with 16 counts](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/13/nyregion/manafort-indictment.html). More than a dozen other felonies. Isn’t he the one who was recently described as having an otherwise blameless past, or some such bullshit. There’s no kind of criminal like a Trump criminal. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/10007 "2019-03-13T19:23:02Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > I must have stuttered in post #9989. 🙂 It’s Friedo. [He’s smart, not like everybody says.](https://tenor.com/view/fredo-smart-notdumb-godfather-gif-9618865) (Sorry, but I’ve actually waited a damned long time to pull that line out about you, Friedo. Glad I can check it off my to-do list. 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/10008 "2019-03-13T19:47:44Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > I must have stuttered in post #9989. 🙂 Derp. I just moved timezones. I can’t keep on top of breaking news anymore. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/10009 "2019-03-13T19:52:34Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Derp. I just moved timezones. I can’t keep on top of breaking news anymore. 😛 To be fair, I didn’t quote any part of the article, as you did. Made my post easy to miss. I was just so pleased to see it, I got excited. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/10010 "2019-03-13T19:53:38Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > It’s Friedo. [He’s smart, not like everybody says.](https://tenor.com/view/fredo-smart-notdumb-godfather-gif-9618865) > > (Sorry, but I’ve actually waited a damned long time to pull that line out about you, Friedo. Glad I can check it off my to-do list. 😉 ) I can see I need to brush up on my Godfather references… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/10011 "2019-03-13T19:56:17Z")
For the record, it’s _Fredo_ who is smart, not like everybody says. _friedo_ is and always has been kinda a dumbass. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/10012 "2019-03-13T20:10:06Z")
For the record, nobody here ever claimed _I_ was smart either, so we’re good. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/10013 "2019-03-13T20:41:28Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > [New York charges Manafort with 16 counts](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/13/nyregion/manafort-indictment.html). That said, I’m not super optimistic that the sentences will be all that lengthy, given the Federal results. Though, obviously, the more to pile on the better. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/10014 "2019-03-13T20:44:23Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > That said, I’m not super optimistic that the sentences will be all that lengthy, given the Federal results. Though, obviously, the more to pile on the better. It’s more about making a possible pardon irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/10015 "2019-03-13T23:04:19Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > That said, I’m not super optimistic that the sentences will be all that lengthy, given the Federal results. Though, obviously, the more to pile on the better. His total exposure is 25 years maximum, so not a small amount of time for a man who’s about to turn 70. ---
**Author:** ![romansperson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/romansperson/32/17100_2.png) [@romansperson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/romansperson)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/10016 "2019-03-14T00:41:25Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > His total exposure is 25 years maximum, so not a small amount of time for a man who’s about to turn 70. And who has been doing illegal shit unnoticed (or uncared about) for years, until he ended up in the Trumpiverse. This is what really bothers me. I understand that first priorities with US law enforcement lie with violent crime here in this country, but some of the stuff Manafort did very likely resulted in people being killed elsewhere and it would have been awful nice if someone somewhere had given a shit about that earlier. Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/10017 "2019-03-14T01:02:42Z")
> [@romansperson](#): > > And who has been doing illegal shit unnoticed (or uncared about) for years, until he ended up in the Trumpiverse. This is what really bothers me. I understand that first priorities with US law enforcement lie with violent crime here in this country, but some of the stuff Manafort did very likely resulted in people being killed elsewhere and it would have been awful nice if someone somewhere had given a shit about that earlier. Just sayin’. I’ve heard this complaint a lot, and it’s understandable to a point. Here’s another perspective: It’s hard to prosecute a case with no probable cause, and hence no witnesses and no evidence. Until people like Rick Gates, Michael Flynn and Michael Cohen came forward and were willing to provide their testimony/evidence in exchange for leniency, what basis did law enforcement have to subpoena documents, tap phones, question witnesses or anything else? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/10018 "2019-03-14T01:10:24Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Manafort’s lawyer claims that two lawyers have ruled that there was no collusion with Russia. Not ruling that there is is not the same as ruling that there isn’t. I’ve been trying to find out where that lawyer, Kevin Downing, is admitted to the bar—because surely that bar association would have something to say to a member who has now lied in public, quite egregiously, twice. Haven’t found the information, though–just that Downing worked in DC for several years. On the egregious lying–from MSNBC: > [@](#): > > All of which leads to the second angle of interest: why Manafort’s lawyer would make a claim like this that was so obviously and demonstrably untrue. > > The answer, in case this isn’t already painfully obvious, is that Donald Trump likes to pretend that people keep exonerating him in the Russia scandal. > **[Why Manafort's lawyer told such an odd whopper outside the courthouse](https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/why-manaforts-lawyer-told-such-odd-whopper-outside-the-courthouse-msna1204296)** > > Manafort's lawyer was focused on a "no collusion" talking point this afternoon, which wasn't true, but which appeared tailored to satisfy Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Fair\_Rarity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fair_rarity/32/153_2.png) [@Fair\_Rarity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fair_Rarity)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/10019 "2019-03-14T01:13:15Z")
Trump can/can try to pardon Manafort and himself, but it’s only Federal. Those state charges, incoming from potentially multiple states… they’re not going to go away. So a pardon today or the day after the 2020 election doesn’t really do much for Trump’s longterm freedom. Chris Hayes said today on Twitter that Trump isn’t apt to pardon as payback, but dangle the potential for a pardon as an inducement to keep from flipping. Like it came out today it was dangled to Cohen. Why ANYONE who has worked with Trump would hope he would risk his own reputation and office to pardon them is beyond me. He will only do it if it helps him and if he pardons Manfort, for example, then Manafort can be compelled to testify. And that would be bad for Trump. The hope of a pardon keeps Manafort from flipping. So if I’m him and now I’m facing some of those unpardonable state charges… do I flip? I’m nailed on the Federal level. If I cooperate with the state, I get out of prison to testify from time to time. I may get my state time to be concurrent with my federal time. Maybe the state attorneys put in a good word and I get some time shaved off my federal time. I won’t get my Trump pardon, but I’m not getting that anyway. Working with the state might be the only way I don’t die in prison. Unless, of course, the information he has is so explosive re: Russia that the only way he’ll survive prison is to shut up. That’s a wild card. But all these other people. Why are you going to hope on Trump? If he hasn’t pardoned anyone yet and potentially any pardon he might grant could be upended because it could be conceived as obstruction on Trump’s part, why are you going to hope he pardons you? Because he’s honest? Loyal? Trustworthy? The dangling of pardons is not real. It’s a higher stakes version of “the check is in the mail.” ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/10020 "2019-03-14T02:38:29Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > I’ve heard this complaint a lot, and it’s understandable to a point. > > Here’s another perspective: It’s hard to prosecute a case with no probable cause, and hence no witnesses and no evidence. Until people like Rick Gates, Michael Flynn and Michael Cohen came forward and were willing to provide their testimony/evidence in exchange for leniency, what basis did law enforcement have to subpoena documents, tap phones, question witnesses or anything else? Yes. Commercial Real Estate, Finance and Construction are quite possibly the three dirtiest businesses in New York City, and vectors where the three meet are veritable shitholes of corruption. As a New Yorker the thing that surprises me most about Trump is the stuff that hasn’t come up yet — like his connections and dealings with shyster mob lawyer/fixer and convicted felon Al Pirro. Who is the ex-husband of Jeannine Pirro. Who used to be the Westchester DA. Whose legitimate legal career was killed because sensitive information made its way from her DA office to the mob. So she tried TV law and failed now she kisses Trumps ass on Fox News. And no one even questions their long-standing personal connection. But there are a lot of those dealings and relationships out there and everyone knows a lot of it is dirty, but no one can find that first crack in the wall to justify opening an investigation. It can take a lot of focused effort to find those initial cracks, and the media can be a big help. That is why these big prosecutions often happen after a lot of media attention. Think of Martin Shkrelli. Also, once these characters wormed their way into a Presidential campaign, these shady dealings became serious national security issues and merited greater attention. I bet the FBI freaked the fuck out when all these shady characters started showing up around Trump on the campaign trail. Kind of like how Commissioner Gordon would flip when the Joker, the Penguin, the Riddler and Catwoman all showed up together. > [@Fair\_Rarity](#): > > The dangling of pardons is not real. It’s a higher stakes version of “the check is in the mail.” Everything Trump does is a high stakes version of “the check is in the mail”. I’m pretty sure Russia expected more than they got. Magnitsky still hasn’t been repealed and even though Trump tried his hardest to give them Syria, that only half worked out. Agent Orange has some explaining to do. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/10021 "2019-03-14T13:47:06Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > … Kind of like how Commissioner Gordon would flip when the Joker, the Penguin, the Riddler and Catwoman all showed up together… Excellent analogy! In the comic book world, this would be cause for alarm. In thump world, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/10022 "2019-03-14T14:13:31Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > His total exposure is 25 years maximum, so not a small amount of time for a man who’s about to turn 70. Apocryphal sentencing story: Judge: “Thirty years!” White-collar defendant: “Your Honor, I’m seventy years old. There’s no way I’m going to be able to serve that long a sentence.” Judge (kindly): “Well, just do the best you can.” > [@Fair\_Rarity](#): > > …Chris Hayes said today on Twitter that Trump isn’t apt to pardon as payback, but dangle the potential for a pardon as an inducement to keep from flipping… His pardon of Joe Arpaio was widely seen as payback for the ex-sheriff’s high-profile support in the 2016 campaign. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=500) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=502)