# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 54
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1061 "2017-12-05T02:07:34Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > [https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/04/jeff-sessions-president-obstruct-justice-bill-clinton-278517](https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/04/jeff-sessions-president-obstruct-justice-bill-clinton-278517) > > In the article linked above, you will see that Sessions argued in the Clinton Impeachment that Presidents can indeed obstruct justice. So did a few other notable people. It’s different when it’s a Republican president. It’s like when good old Newt G. was going after Clinton for having an affair, while at the exact same time, he was porking his girlfriend. They have no problem being hypocritical; It’s WHAT THEY DO. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1062 "2017-12-05T02:46:42Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > I wish you would not insult Oscar the Grouch. > > As to my bolding of your post… why do you think he hasn’t shut down the investigation already? I mean, every single day it goes on things get worse and worse for him. He’s twisting himself into a pretzel trying to “explain” what happened. His poll numbers are slow to tank, but they’re tanking. If he could shut it down, for the life of me I can’t think why he already hasn’t. What’s your take on that? I can only speculate, but part of me thinks he has wanted to shut it down and probably tossed it around for a while, but he has been repeatedly talked out of it by, first of all, his lawyers. Rightly or wrongly, they’re convincing Trump that Mueller’s investigation isn’t going to hit that close to home. I think Trump was buying that one even past the point of Manafort - Trump already suspected he was going down. It hit closer to home when Mueller made Flynn flip like a fuckin pancake – now Trump no longer trusts his lawyers’ advice and he’s probably let them know in no uncertain terms. Hence the chaos of this weekend. Another reason that Trump hasn’t gone for the kill shot is that he wasn’t sure what kind of DoJ and FBI loyalty he had, and what kind of congressional loyalty he had. He’s still not sure, but there are some things working in his favor. 1. It is by now clear that Sessions may actually himself be part of the probe and might have some skin in the game – like the skin of his ass if Mueller’s investigation gets too much momentum. I can’t see General Beauregard allowing a full frontal assault. 2. Don’t look now but there might be some major changes in the FBI. Perhaps enough people told Trump that Christopher Wray might be able to come in and do a little house cleaning, which is totally normal during transitions. Added to that is the fact that some of Mueller’s team has now been caught in a compromised position, having an extra marital affair and texting each other about their contempt for Trump. 3. Congressional republicans have become more loyal to Trump than they were even just a few months ago. This is Trump’s party, and the change is especially breathtaking in the Senate. Trump has wanted to nix the investigation for a while, but was talked out of it. Now the time might be approaching to make his move. It might be a week from now or several months from now. But I suspect he’s going to try to cap the investigation. Whether he succeeds, what kind of backlash that creates…it’s anyone’s guess. But he’s a cornered animal right now, and he’s going to come out scratching and biting like he’s got rabies. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1063 "2017-12-05T02:52:41Z")
Uh oh. [Manafort’s bail conditions are going to be re-visited](http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/04/politics/manafort-bail-russian-intelligence/index.html) after he violated the court’s order to "“refrain from making statements to the media or in public settings that pose a substantial likelihood of material prejudice to this case.” It seems Manafort was “ghostwriting an op-ed while out on bail last month with a Russian who has ties to the Russian intelligence service” Oh dear. I guess he thought that nobody would guess that he was trying to prejudice the case. With help from Russian spys. Not a big deal though. I’m sure it’s a “nothingburger” for those 30% of the population who effectively think that it’s fine if Russia runs the United States. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1064 "2017-12-05T02:53:39Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > [https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/04/jeff-sessions-president-obstruct-justice-bill-clinton-278517](https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/04/jeff-sessions-president-obstruct-justice-bill-clinton-278517) > > In the article linked above, you will see that Sessions argued in the Clinton Impeachment that Presidents can indeed obstruct justice. So did a few other notable people. There’s no question that the president can obstruct justice, and it’s laughable to think that this president has not done so. But it’s also clear that legal proceedings can’t begin until the president’s out of office first. He probably can pardon himself in advance of any criminal trial before entering private life as well. It sounds wacky but there are reasons the Framers did this. They trusted other institutions would protect us from the worst impulses of a rogue executive. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1065 "2017-12-05T02:55:13Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Uh oh. [Manafort’s bail conditions are going to be re-visited](http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/04/politics/manafort-bail-russian-intelligence/index.html) after he violated the court’s order to "“refrain from making statements to the media or in public settings that pose a substantial likelihood of material prejudice to this case.” > > It seems Manafort was “ghostwriting an op-ed while out on bail last month with a Russian who has ties to the Russian intelligence service” > > Oh dear. I guess he thought that nobody would guess that he was trying to prejudice the case. With help from Russian spys. > > Not a big deal though. I’m sure it’s a “nothingburger” for those 30% of the population who effectively think that it’s fine if Russia runs the United States. Just un-fucking believable. And this is bad news for the president because it reinforces the association between Russia and this president. Not that it substantively changes the legal landscape for Trump, but in terms of optics, it pretty much is your smoking gun. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1066 "2017-12-05T03:43:22Z")
Remember we had a thread about common sense a few weeks ago? Add this to the list of examples I gave. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1067 "2017-12-05T03:56:37Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > [CNN’s coverage of this.](http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/04/politics/trump-john-dowd-obstruct-justice/index.html) > > So, trump cannot obstruct justice because he said he cannot. Constitutional law doesn’t exempt him from this charge. He wants it to, and so in the perverted construct of his life-view, all he has to do is say it does. If that doesn’t seem to be going well, he’ll issue an Executive Order making it so. > > We’re not a Dictatorship how? > > ☹ Shades of _It’s not illegal if the President does it"_! Not everybody understands why I consider Ford to be only a little higher than Nixon an the bottom quintile of Presidents. We could have put that notion to rest in 1974 if he hadn’t insisted on issuing that pardon BEFORE letting a trial happen. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1068 "2017-12-05T04:13:33Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Just un-fucking believable. And this is bad news for the president because it reinforces the association between Russia and this president. Not that it substantively changes the legal landscape for Trump, but in terms of optics, it pretty much is your smoking gun. Manafort will just get his lawyer to claim that HE was writing the op-ed. Seems that’s the go-to defense at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1069 "2017-12-05T14:03:50Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Just un-fucking believable. And this is bad news for the president because it reinforces the association between Russia and this president. Not that it substantively changes the legal landscape for Trump, but in terms of optics, it pretty much is your smoking gun. IMHO this is making a mountain out of a molehill. The Russian with whom Manafort was allegedly writing this Op-Ed is a long term associate of his, who is alleged to have ties to Russian intelligence. If you’re assuming that Manafort is aware of this guy’s ties to Russian intelligence and abetting it, then he’s been essentially something of a Russian spy himself for 10 years. But if not, then there’s nothing suspicious about a guy collaborating with a long term associate and employee of his. And it’s not like they were engaged in some super-duper secret intelligence-sharing mission here. They were writing a newspaper column, that’s it. The legal ramifications for Manafort are in that he may be in violation of a gag order. The fact that the guy is a “Russian with ties to Russian intelligence” seems like something thrown in for added effect, but with no real significance in context. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1070 "2017-12-05T14:14:50Z")
Mueller has [subpoenaed Deutsche Bank](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/05/donald-trump-bank-records-handed-over-robert-mueller) to get Trump’s personal finances. Deutsche Bank has had some questionable dealings with Trump, so this could get Trump’s dander up a bit. I can’t wait to hear how Trump isn’t personally under investigation. But, just his past and present business partners, his bank records, his family and all of his associates. But not Trump himself. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1071 "2017-12-05T14:22:22Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The legal ramifications for Manafort are in that he may be in violation of a gag order. The fact that the guy is a “Russian with ties to Russian intelligence” seems like something thrown in for added effect, but with no real significance in context. Arguably, that information speaks to Manafort’s state of mind. It seems to show that Manafort’s not concerned about the judge’s orders nor appearances. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1072 "2017-12-05T14:25:58Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > I look forward to Preet Bharara’s take on this in his Stay Tuned podcast. He will post a Flynn episode sometime today. > > [Stay tuned](https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/stay-tuned-with-preet/id1265845136?mt=2). Vox has a [good summary](https://www.vox.com/2017/12/5/16735480/michael-flynn-plea-preet-bharara) of Bharara’s podcast. It’s worth listening to (it’s a quick one, maybe only 10-15 minutes). But, he’s suspicious of the idea that this plea indicates that Flynn is currently singing and got a sweetheart deal. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1073 "2017-12-05T14:42:25Z")
Interestingly, Bharara (among other things) made the exact same point cited above from Andrew McCarthy. Specifically that: > [@](#): > > Bharara refers to his own experience supervising similar high-profile investigations and prosecutions. “When we had evidence against somebody and wanted them to flip, we made them plead guilty to every bad act that they had ever done,” Bharara said. “Especially if we were later gonna be alleging other people had engaged in that activity as well.” > > Doing that, Bharara argues, makes a witness like Flynn more credible in court if he has to testify against someone else. “Otherwise, the only thing the jury will know for a fact about your witness is that he is an admitted, convicted liar,” he said. Though, as noted, it apparently varies by office, and it’s possible that Bharara’s office and McCarthy’s shared the same practice, and Mueller might differ. Also worth noting that: > [@](#): > > So what does Bharara think could be going on? One possibility, he suggests, is that Mueller doesn’t have anything else on Flynn that might stand up in court: “People need to really consider the possibility that this might be it.” I’ve noted this earlier (or possibly in the Elections thread). Of course, there are also other possibilities, as Bharara goes on to state. But the certainty with which people have greeted the Flynn deal seems unwarranted. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1074 "2017-12-05T14:50:28Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Interestingly, Bharara (among other things) made the exact same point cited above from Andrew McCarthy. Specifically that:Though, as noted, it apparently varies by office, and it’s possible that Bharara’s office and McCarthy’s shared the same practice, and Mueller might differ. > > Also worth noting that:I’ve noted this earlier (or possibly in the Elections thread). Of course, there are also other possibilities, as Bharara goes on to state. But the certainty with which people have greeted the Flynn deal seems unwarranted. Yes, he gives this as a possibility, but this is not the possibility that he thinks is going on. He seemed to prefer the idea that Mueller is holding back other charges not necessarily because a sweetheart deal is in place or because there is no evidence of other wrong doing, but because these charges implicate other people and he doesn’t have the full picture yet, or to combat the pardon power. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1075 "2017-12-05T15:00:33Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Yes, he gives this as a possibility, but this is not the possibility that he thinks is going on. He seemed to prefer the idea […] Perhaps you’ve heard that in the actual podcast, but there’s zero indication of this in the Vox summary. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1076 "2017-12-05T15:11:27Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > [https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/04/jeff-sessions-president-obstruct-justice-bill-clinton-278517](https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/04/jeff-sessions-president-obstruct-justice-bill-clinton-278517) > > In the article linked above, you will see that Sessions argued in the Clinton Impeachment that Presidents can indeed obstruct justice. So did a few other notable people. Along the lines of my prior post on the subject, I don’t think there’s any contradiction at all. In the one case, Trump was carrying out official Executive Branch function. In the other case, Clinton was acting as a private citizen. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1077 "2017-12-05T15:21:45Z")
Here we go, folks! Here - we - go. Apparently Mueller has subpoenaed financial records from Deutsche bank. This is THE red line that King Donald does not want crossed for reasons that are probably obvious. If nothing else, he can notice irregularities in his finances, which might tip the team off that there’s dark money coming from somewhere. > **[Trump's personal banking information handed over to Robert Mueller](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/05/donald-trump-bank-records-handed-over-robert-mueller)** > > German bank, Trump’s biggest lender, complies with special counsel’s request to turn over documents and says it always cooperates with authorities The National Weather Service has just issued a severe tweet storm warning in effect until about 12:00 p.m. tomorrow afternoon. Torrential anti-Clinton, Comey, and Obama diatribes are expected, and we advise you all to stay away from windows. ETA: ninja’d by the lurker. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1078 "2017-12-05T15:25:32Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Perhaps you’ve heard that in the actual podcast, but there’s zero indication of this in the Vox summary. That certainly seems to be the implication of the vox article and it was the crux of the podcast. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1079 "2017-12-05T15:28:06Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Mueller has [subpoenaed Deutsche Bank](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/05/donald-trump-bank-records-handed-over-robert-mueller) to get Trump’s personal finances. Deutsche Bank has had some questionable dealings with Trump, so this could get Trump’s dander up a bit. > > I can’t wait to hear how Trump isn’t personally under investigation. But, just his past and present business partners, his bank records, his family and all of his associates. But not Trump himself. We’re getting closer to the moment of truth. I expect that we’re going to start hearing dueling narratives and attacks on the credibility of Mueller’s team and the federal agencies working with him. This could be the beginning of a battle that determines whether or not we continue to be a democracy in the currently and commonly understood sense. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1080 "2017-12-05T15:51:03Z")
Is FOX News covering any of this? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=53) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=55)