# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 570
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/11383 "2019-05-09T00:04:45Z")
> [@OttoDaFe](#): > > I have a feeling that CFSG would love to have the Democrats rush headlong into impeachment, and in fact may be trying to goad them into doing just that. The articles would fail — perhaps miserably — in the Senate (and Yertle the Majority Leader would be certain to fast-track them); even better, CFSG would have a more-or-less legitimate “persecution card” to haul out when needed during the election. > > MHO, the Democrats should investigate wherever they can, and push back using every legal means available. Then if/when they do impeach, they will be in a much stronger position. > > (I’m not sure how to look it up, but ISTR that in 1974 the country was still deeply divided over impeachment as late as the beginning of the House Judiciary Committee hearings. Opinion started to swing during the hearings, aided by a) a mountain of evidence, b) John Doar, and c) Peter Rodino, who kept the Southern Democrats on board — which in turn enabled him to bring a number of Republicans around.) I’m telling you: evidence isn’t the problem. People know that Donny’s a corrupt shit stain. What matters is that the economy is perceived as doing fairly well and we’re not in a state of war, and we’re not perceived to be withdrawing from a foreign war in a humiliating defeat. America didn’t force Nixon out of office because he was corrupt; they did so because they were dealing with foreign policy embarrassment and there was economic uncertainty. One of the worst recessions of the 20th Century occurred in 1973-74. Historians will talk about how noble some republicans were and how the Constitution and the system ultimately worked, but I seriously doubt that’s true. Americans won’t want to push Trump out before his second term unless there is the perception of some kind of crisis, most likely economic. When people fear that their jobs are about to go up in smoke, then they’ll demand impeachment. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/11384 "2019-05-09T00:28:18Z")
What the fuck is going on in here? We have people actually arguing that Congress should just give up on asserting its subpoena power, self mutilating its ability to investigate. And you’re pushing this as some sort of PR win for the Democrats if they give up, instead of the very, very obvious loss, both in PR and in reality, because they’d be conceding power to the executive to be above the law. It’s one thing to not push impeachment. Of course that’s something you don’t do unless you can convict. But to not use the rest of their powers? To cede control to the executive? What in the world does that accomplish that is remotely good? They can arrest him. They don’t need Senate confirmation to do so. Why shouldn’t they? He’s breaking the law. And he’s not the President, so he can’t be exempted from it. It’s like saying the Courts should have just let Kim Davis go. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/11385 "2019-05-09T00:55:07Z")
Let some Dems rant for impeachment, let others look all sober and steady, saying only time will tell. And both urge investigations. Problem? Cover both bases, hell, sit on them. Don’t need unity yet. Keep the options open, the Forces of Darkness have oodles of unity, but they don’t have a lot of choice. Unity ain’t so great when half the country hates yer guts. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/11386 "2019-05-09T02:01:21Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > What the fuck is going on in here? We have people actually arguing that Congress should just give up on asserting its subpoena power, self mutilating its ability to investigate. And you’re pushing this as some sort of PR win for the Democrats if they give up, instead of the very, very obvious loss, both in PR and in reality, because they’d be conceding power to the executive to be above the law. > > It’s one thing to not push impeachment. Of course that’s something you don’t do unless you can convict. But to not use the rest of their powers? To cede control to the executive? What in the world does that accomplish that is remotely good? > > They can arrest him. They don’t need Senate confirmation to do so. Why shouldn’t they? He’s breaking the law. And he’s not the President, so he can’t be exempted from it. > > It’s like saying the Courts should have just let Kim Davis go. Should the Republicans have arrested Eric Holder? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/11387 "2019-05-09T02:04:56Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Should the Republicans have arrested Eric Holder? Upon re-reading the Holder contempt charge, it does seem similar and I am also interested in the answer. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/11388 "2019-05-09T02:13:25Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Trump exerts Executive Privilege over Mueller Report and all supporting documents and evidence: > > [https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1126129624101150727](https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1126129624101150727) Let me see if I have this right. The Mueller investigation was entirely a product of the Executive Branch, conducted and overseen by people ultimately responsible to President Trump, and is therefore subject to a privilege claim by the chief executive. And a witch hunt. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/11389 "2019-05-09T02:55:10Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Let me see if I have this right. The Mueller investigation was entirely a product of the Executive Branch, conducted and overseen by people ultimately responsible to President Trump, and is therefore subject to a privilege claim by the chief executive. > > And a witch hunt. and it completely exonerates him ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/11390 "2019-05-09T10:10:15Z")
The executive privilege claim will inevitably head to the highest court. God help us all should the court turn out to be so partisan as to grant this kind of claim that was essentially rejected by the court in the Nixon era. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/11391 "2019-05-09T10:16:38Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Upon re-reading the Holder contempt charge, it does seem similar and I am also interested in the answer. It’s not exactly the same but there are enough parallels. Yes, the Republican investigation of “Fast and Furious” was almost purely politically motivated, particularly given the fact that Holder inherited the program from the Bush era. Still, the point is, when only 29% of the country wants impeachment, it’s clear that any attempt at impeachment would be viewed through a partisan lens. And let’s face it: the reason Democrats are threatening Barr with contempt and arrest is because they’re incensed that he didn’t do more to lay the groundwork for impeachment. Now under those circumstances, do we want the Democratic House of Representatives ordering the Sgt at Arms to arrest a Republican Attorney General? Keep in mind that the Republicans could regain control of the House in 2020. They could retain the presidency and Senate along with it? Revenge would not only be possible but, in their minds, justified. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/11392 "2019-05-09T10:24:42Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > The executive privilege claim will inevitably head to the highest court. God help us all should the court turn out to be so partisan as to grant this kind of claim that was essentially rejected by the court in the Nixon era. God ain’t gonna help. Massive, violent country-wide riots culminating in the violent ouster of several key government figures might. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/11393 "2019-05-09T10:32:52Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > God ain’t gonna help. Massive, violent country-wide riots culminating in the violent ouster of several key government figures might. As bad as Trump and the Republicans are, massive civil unrest and the violent overthrow of the government are not an improvement. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/11394 "2019-05-09T10:59:34Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > As bad as Trump and the Republicans are, massive civil unrest and the violent overthrow of the government are not an improvement. I think the point is to stop them from getting to the point where they’re worse, because by the time we reach that point, it will be damn near impossible for such an uprising to take place. You stop fascism early, because stopping it late is a hell of a lot harder. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/11395 "2019-05-09T11:12:48Z")
You’re not gonna stop fascism with riots – that would actually have the opposite effect of convincing the masses of people in the center that the protestors are just as dangerous as the radical right, and that the country needs to be protected from such people. The example of Martin Luther King, the Colour Revolutions, Gandhi…that’s a better approach to take. Non-violent civil protest. It’s important to resist, to refuse to comply with the political aims of authoritarians, but violence would justify their oppressive tactics. In any case, I found this and agree with it. The problem is that Trump’s opponents have been counting on legal and political machinations and technicalities to undo him, and they keep getting disappointed when they don’t. I pointed out a long time ago that Trump will not be taken down that way because he’s not going to play by the rules, and I think now some people are starting to get it. But what will take him down is to beat him politically - that is _the_ way to win. Democrats have to make the case, politically, with the people, that he’s bad for the country. > **[Opinion | House Dems won't beat Trump with legislative loopholes. But there's...](https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/ag-barr-s-contempt-charge-won-t-force-trump-give-ncna1003291)** > > Democrats are unlikely to obtain the testimony and documents they seek using court proceedings or tricky parliamentary maneuvers. > [@](#): > > The Democrats have to face it: No technical trick is going to do the job. Their only route to success is via the muddy road laid out by master politician Abraham Lincoln: “Public sentiment is everything. With public sentiment, nothing can fail; without it nothing can succeed.” ---
**Author:** ![UnwittingAmericans](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d9b06d/32.png) [@UnwittingAmericans](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwittingAmericans)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/11396 "2019-05-09T13:26:18Z")
None of that civil unrest is gonna happen. When the magnetic field flips, you’ll get nothing more than tweets from the general public. Remember “The Resistance?” People getting together wearing funny hats on a nice Saturday? How long did that last, a month? Dems are playing it fine, issue subpoenas, get Mueller in there, keep going after McGahn until you get him, maybe there’s some crazy ass wildcard out there somewhere, you won’t know unless you try. Who the hell gives a shit about 2020 campaigning at this point? It’s about to be summer. Dems have plenty of time. Take it as far as you can, see whether you can get enough of the public behind impeachment, if not, then just say you’re not going to it because [some reason other than apathy-shaming, lol]. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/11397 "2019-05-09T16:26:28Z")
> [@UnwittingAmericans](#): > > None of that civil unrest is gonna happen. When the magnetic field flips, you’ll get nothing more than tweets from the general public. > > Remember “The Resistance?” People getting together wearing funny hats on a nice Saturday? How long did that last, a month? [uh, no](https://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/article229849024.html). It’s still going on. The energy that came out of the Resistance moved into Indivisible, moved into hundreds of thousands of new organizers (including myself) across the country, dedicating ourselves to learning how to make a difference, how to build networks, how to lobby, how to move our issues into the public arena. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/11398 "2019-05-09T17:02:13Z")
The goalpost has been moved again as Trump states that the Mueller report found that there was “no collusion and essentially no obstruction." So, supporters should get on board with the new talking point and slip the word “essentially” in there to make it all better. > **[Trump says he'll leave Mueller testimony up to Barr | CNN Politics](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/05/09/politics/trump-barr-mueller-testify/index.html)** > > President Donald Trump reversed course again Thursday that he will leave it up to Attorney General William Barr as to whether special counsel Robert Mueller testifies before Congress. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Borborygmi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/borborygmi/32/217_2.png) [@Borborygmi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Borborygmi)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/11399 "2019-05-09T17:12:58Z")
“Have you got anything without obstruction?” “Well, there’s obstruction, treason, collusion and obstruction, that’s not got much obstruction in it.” “I don’t want ANY obstruction!” ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/11400 "2019-05-09T17:20:14Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > The goalpost has been moved again as Trump states that the Mueller report found that there was “no collusion and essentially no obstruction." > > So, supporters should get on board with the new talking point and slip the word “essentially” in there to make it all better. > [Mueller testimony before Congress up to Attorney General William Barr, President Trump says - CNNPolitics](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/05/09/politics/trump-barr-mueller-testify/index.html) Only 10 instances of obstruction. Compare that to say 10,000, and that’s ‘essentially’ no obstruction. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/11401 "2019-05-09T17:58:08Z")
> [@Borborygmi](#): > > “Have you got anything without obstruction?” > > “Well, there’s obstruction, treason, collusion and obstruction, that’s not got much obstruction in it.” > > “I don’t want ANY obstruction!” Hush now, don’t make a fuss. I’ll have your obstruction. I LOVE it! ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/11402 "2019-05-09T18:52:21Z")
> [@Borborygmi](#): > > “Have you got anything without obstruction?” > > “Well, there’s obstruction, treason, collusion and obstruction, that’s not got much obstruction in it.” > > “I don’t want ANY obstruction!” “There’s a dead democracy on the landing, mum!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=569) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=571)