# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 64
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1261 "2017-12-15T19:28:12Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Just so we are clear, the president of the United States just signaled to a cooperating witness that he might be willing to pardon him: > > [http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/15/politics/donald-trump-michael-flynn-pardon/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/15/politics/donald-trump-michael-flynn-pardon/index.html) Not at all surprising. Nor is it surprising that he threatened to “rebuild” the FBI (and something about making it bigger and better than ever). The president sees the rule of law as an existential threat. He is going to destroy the rule of law, and he is going to weaponize the justice department and the post-911 security apparatus to go after his enemies until and unless he is stopped. Welcome to Amerika. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1262 "2017-12-15T20:54:03Z")
The purge of the FBI to save Trump is beginning in earnest: > “FBI Deputy Director McCabe sscheduled to testify Tuesday to House Intelligence – but will he? “If McCabe is still there,” says one panel Republican. And another, Gowdy, tells FoxNews he’d a"be a little bit surprised if he is still an employee of the FBI this time next week.” " ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1263 "2017-12-15T20:59:42Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > The purge of the FBI to save Trump is beginning in earnest: > > [x.com](https://twitter.com/HouseInSession/status/941764336690847746) > > “FBI Deputy Director McCabe sscheduled to testify Tuesday to House Intelligence – but will he? “If McCabe is still there,” says one panel Republican. And another, Gowdy, tells FoxNews he’d a"be a little bit surprised if he is still an employee of the FBI this time next week.” " There’s something brewing right now. One way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1264 "2017-12-15T21:00:09Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Not at all surprising. Nor is it surprising that he threatened to “rebuild” the FBI ( **and something about making it bigger and better than ever** ). > > The president sees the rule of law as an existential threat. He is going to destroy the rule of law, and he is going to weaponize the justice department and the post-911 security apparatus to go after his enemies until and unless he is stopped. Welcome to Amerika. But how will he ever find another cross-dresser? Yes, I know it’s not true. So what? \ ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1265 "2017-12-15T21:13:55Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > There’s something brewing right now. One way or the other. On that note, Kushner is shopping for [a crisis PR firm](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/kushners-legal-team-looks-to-hire-crisis-public-relations-firm/2017/12/15/6fbf144c-e1c3-11e7-9eb6-e3c7ecfb4638_story.html?utm_term=.3f4302601e27), apparently. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1266 "2017-12-15T21:41:23Z")
This is only the beginning, folks. Only the beginning. Remember that authoritarian regimes don’t view politics in terms of party; there are those who support the regime, and there are enemies of the regime. It’s never anything more than that. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1267 "2017-12-15T22:30:39Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > On that note, Kushner is shopping for [a crisis PR firm](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/kushners-legal-team-looks-to-hire-crisis-public-relations-firm/2017/12/15/6fbf144c-e1c3-11e7-9eb6-e3c7ecfb4638_story.html?utm_term=.3f4302601e27), apparently. And a divorce lawyer? ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1268 "2017-12-16T07:39:14Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > The purge of the FBI to save Trump is beginning in earnest: > > [x.com](https://twitter.com/HouseInSession/status/941764336690847746) > > “FBI Deputy Director McCabe sscheduled to testify Tuesday to House Intelligence – but will he? “If McCabe is still there,” says one panel Republican. And another, Gowdy, tells FoxNews he’d a"be a little bit surprised if he is still an employee of the FBI this time next week.” " I work with police officers. From lunch conversations they would have no problem if Trump shut the whole thing down and pardoned everyone. After all, he’s being unjustly persecuted by the evil left. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1269 "2017-12-16T13:48:07Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Obstruction of justice is by definition criminal. So a thing can’t be both a crime and not a crime. If I stand at a crosswalk, wait until the sign says “walk,” and cross the street between the two white lines, I’ve behaved legally. If I am walking away from the scene of a car accident, where I plowed my car into a pedestrian and killed him, EVEN THOUGH I AM NOT JAYWALKING, I am committing an entirely different crime. It may be that there’s no way for a pardon, in isolation, to be a criminal pardon. But the Constitution doens’t say that the act of pardoning someone invalidates all other laws that might apply to the situation. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1270 "2017-12-16T13:50:04Z")
Apparently the Inspector General wasn’t contacted about releasing those texts to congress, which is contrary to what Rod Rosenstein has reportedly told Congress in testimony. I’m just wondering if this ‘oversight’ is a pretext that could be used to dismiss Rosenstein. > **[Watchdog: DOJ didn’t consult us before releasing FBI agent’s texts](https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/365200-watchdog-doj-didnt-consult-us-before-releasing-fbi-agents-texts/)** > > The inspector general’s letter appears to contradict an earlier statement from the Justice Department. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1271 "2017-12-16T13:52:26Z")
Does anyone know the exact steps of how it would go down if Trump tries to fire Mueller? Can he just say “Mueller is fired”? I presume this is a “no”. Can he fire Rosenstein? I presume this is a “yes”. If he fires Rosenstein, who takes his place? Would a replacement have to be confirmed by the Senate? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1272 "2017-12-16T14:54:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Does anyone know the exact steps of how it would go down if Trump tries to fire Mueller? > > Can he just say “Mueller is fired”? I presume this is a “no”. > > Can he fire Rosenstein? I presume this is a “yes”. If he fires Rosenstein, who takes his place? Would a replacement have to be confirmed by the Senate? I think that he can’t just fire him directly but he can lean on people to fire him with cause – cause can be debated and determined after the fact. He can lean on General Beauregard, who in turn can lean on Rosenstein. Rosenstein just said he saw no cause to fire Mueller. He’s in a difficult spot because he’s already angered many critics who believe he had a role in Comey’s dismissal, so he wants to appear non-partisan on the outside. On the inside, however, he has not just one boss but two, including his direct supervisor, who are now directly implicated in the ongoing investigation. Rosenstein is in a no-win situation. He may have just committed an unforced error, and one that could cost him. This goes back to what I said earlier (either here or in another thread), it will be ultimately up to those who are in positions of influence to refuse to obey illegal and unethical orders. This is where we’re at now. So then he hires another deputy AG. Bear in mind, the deputy AG, if Rosenstein is ousted or quits or whatever, would enter the position fully aware of the dynamics and what his bosses expect of him, fully aware that outside oversight which might help him resist pressure has now splintered along party lines, with an activist and aggressive Republican party that sees nothing wrong with suspending the investigation and the rule of law. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1273 "2017-12-16T15:27:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Does anyone know the exact steps of how it would go down if Trump tries to fire Mueller? > > Can he just say “Mueller is fired”? I presume this is a “no”. > > Can he fire Rosenstein? I presume this is a “yes”. If he fires Rosenstein, who takes his place? Would a replacement have to be confirmed by the Senate? Read how the experts did it: [Saturday Night Massacre](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday_Night_Massacre) ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1274 "2017-12-16T15:52:04Z")
> [@Patch](#): > > I work with police officers. From lunch conversations they would have no problem if Trump shut the whole thing down and pardoned everyone. After all, he’s being unjustly persecuted by the evil left. So the “law men” are OK with a contempt for the law, obstruction, and treason. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1275 "2017-12-16T19:52:45Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > So the “law men” are OK with a contempt for the law, obstruction, and treason. > > Got it. A relatively large percentage of law enforcement in this country are extreme right wing racist bigots. It’s why movements like BLM exist. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1276 "2017-12-16T20:01:09Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > A relatively large percentage of law enforcement in this country are extreme right wing racist bigots. It’s why movements like BLM exist. I could not agree more. Examples abound, in the thousands of examples, not dozens of examples. Let folks think that their part of the country isn’t filled with L.E.O.s who are extreme right wing racist bigots- who gleefully manipulate and hide behind their badges at the expense of the lives of " Those People ", let’s just look to a traditionally forward-thinking liberal city for evidence. [San Francisco.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Oscar_Grant). Just chew on that a while. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1277 "2017-12-16T22:01:55Z")
Anyone else think that there is going to be some shit going down next week? There is a Trump [lawyer meeting with Mueller](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-15/trump-lawyers-are-said-to-meet-mueller-as-early-as-next-week) scheduled, the former of which just found out that the latter has [thousands of emails](http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/365264-special-counsel-has-thousands-of-trump-transition-emails-report)that Trump’s team was unaware they had. The attacks on Mueller and the FBI from Trump and Fox have intensified, and even Congress people are discussing that shits and fans might soon hit. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1278 "2017-12-16T23:41:03Z")
There’s the “grounds” Shitstain is going to use to fire Mueller. His lawyers have already sent letters to both houses of Congress claiming that the GSA didn’t own those emails and that their seizure is a 4th Amendment violation. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1279 "2017-12-16T23:57:28Z")
Can’t imagine firing Mueller would come as a surprise to Mueller and that there aren’t contingencies. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1280 "2017-12-16T23:59:37Z")
Oh, I certainly hope so. Mueller ain’t dumb. But it might short-circuit some of the juicier Federal offenses. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=63) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=65)