# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 73
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1441 "2018-01-04T03:24:54Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > I’m curious about the arguments in Manafort’s suit. Rosenstein’s appointment letter limits the scope of Mueller’s investigation (but in practice the order is very broad) but what relevance does that have with regard to whether Manafort is being lawfully prosecuted? If Manafort’s alleged crimes were outside the scope of Meuller’s investigation, then anyone else at DOJ could have investigated and prosecuted them instead. So the question of Mueller’s jurisdictional boundaries seem moot, at least to my understanding. He’s a duly-appointed federal prosecutor and can prosecute any crime he sees fit. Your last sentence seems to be a completely separate argument from the rest of what you write here, and also seems to be incorrect. Mueller was in private practice and was appointed to prosecute a specific set of possible crimes. I highly doubt if he can “prosecute any crime he sees fit”. As for the argument that others at the DOJ can prosecute these crimes, I would guess that this is correct but that Manafort and/or his lawyers believe that Mueller is being particularly aggressive and that another DOJ prosecutor would probably not take it up. All that said, ISTM that Manafort is extremely unlikely to prevail in this. (Possibly he’ll use it as grounds for appeal.) ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1442 "2018-01-04T04:10:34Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > So let’s get this straight: Trump takes the excerpts about the book seriously enough to trash Bannon on twitter, but as for the rest of the book…??? You know as well as I do that Trump did not read the book. He was told about certain parts and reacted to them. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1443 "2018-01-04T04:16:50Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > So let’s get this straight: Trump takes the excerpts about the book seriously enough to trash Bannon on twitter, but as for the rest of the book…??? Better than that - he takes it so seriously [his lawyers have sent Bannon a cease and desist letter](http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/367369-trump-lawyer-sends-cease-and-desist-letter-to-bannon-report) because he violated a confidentiality agreement. ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1444 "2018-01-04T04:30:24Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > Better than that - he takes it so seriously [his lawyers have sent Bannon a cease and desist letter](http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/367369-trump-lawyer-sends-cease-and-desist-letter-to-bannon-report) because he violated a confidentiality agreement. Honest question - is it still breaking an NDA if he’s being quoted by someone else? Edit: Thinking some more on it, I suppose it could well be. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1445 "2018-01-04T04:43:11Z")
Seems a bit too late for cease and desist letters, I would think. Also, Bannon can easily deny he said those things to Wolff ([as many others have in the past](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-michael-wolff-trump-book-20180103-story.html)). ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1446 "2018-01-04T04:58:14Z")
The NY Daily News, as usual, is having some fun with Trump > ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1447 "2018-01-04T04:59:12Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > If there were any possible way Manafort’s civil suit were going anywhere other than the trash can, he wouldn’t have filed it. Instead, he would have filed it with the court in his criminal case and asked for a dismissal. This is a publicity stunt. The only question is how many Republicans will start citing this as proof of overreach by Mueller. Answer: All of them. They’re all complicit here. And keeping this separate from his criminal case is an attempt to keep Donald out of this. They don’t want him to have to get near a court room. So Manafort challenges Mueller & the DOJ’s authority to investigate his money laundering activities, which they turned up while investigating Russian collusion, in a move separate from the collusion investigation. This way, for the scope of this lawsuit, the focus is solely Manafort, not Trump, the Trump Campaign or collusion. But if they can get lucky and find a conservative judge to rule in their favor, and say that Mueller is not authorized to act on any of the money laundering charges that have turned up in the collusion investigation, then Donald can move to have any money laundering charges files against him thrown out on the same grounds, and without having to get Donald to testify to anything. It won’t win on the merits, but they can appeal it up the ladder, and hope that the conservative judges on the Supreme Court will loyally protect Donald. By having Manafort lead the charge on this lawsuit, Donald can get the benefit of ruling without having to put himself forward as an interested party. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1448 "2018-01-04T05:07:54Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Your last sentence seems to be a completely separate argument from the rest of what you write here, and also seems to be incorrect. Mueller was in private practice and was appointed to prosecute a specific set of possible crimes. I highly doubt if he can “prosecute any crime he sees fit”. The Office of Special Counsel is an office of the United States Department of Justice. Under DOJ regulation 28 CFR Part 600 the Special Counsel has “the full power and independent authority to exercise all investigative and prosecutorial functions of any United States Attorney.” ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1449 "2018-01-04T05:33:04Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Answer: All of them. They’re all complicit here. > > And keeping this separate from his criminal case is an attempt to keep Donald out of this. They don’t want him to have to get near a court room. So Manafort challenges Mueller & the DOJ’s authority to investigate his money laundering activities, which they turned up while investigating Russian collusion, in a move separate from the collusion investigation. This way, for the scope of this lawsuit, the focus is solely Manafort, not Trump, the Trump Campaign or collusion. > > But if they can get lucky and find a conservative judge to rule in their favor, and say that Mueller is not authorized to act on any of the money laundering charges that have turned up in the collusion investigation, then Donald can move to have any money laundering charges files against him thrown out on the same grounds, and without having to get Donald to testify to anything. > > It won’t win on the merits, but they can appeal it up the ladder, and hope that the conservative judges on the Supreme Court will loyally protect Donald. > > By having Manafort lead the charge on this lawsuit, Donald can get the benefit of ruling without having to put himself forward as an interested party. It’s not going anywhere period. This is not an uncommon tactic, to sue your prosecutor in another court, but it’s simply not allowed. If there is a reason to throw out the charges against you, it has to be done in the court where your trial is being held or you have to show a good reason why that court is not acceptable such as the trial judge being corrupt or whatever. Manafort’s lawsuit doesn’t even allege that the trial court is unacceptable. This is like getting a traffic ticket and going to divorce court to explain all the reasons you shouldn’t have to pay it. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1450 "2018-01-04T06:36:37Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Also, Bannon can easily deny he said those things to Wolff ([as many others have in the past](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-michael-wolff-trump-book-20180103-story.html)). Sure, but he hasn’t. And Trump hasn’t been acting like it’s untrue either. Makes you wonder, don’t it? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1451 "2018-01-04T10:22:33Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > … Mueller was in private practice and was appointed to prosecute a specific set of possible crimes. … Oh, really? Which ones? Is there a list? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1452 "2018-01-04T13:09:55Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Oh, really? Which ones? Is there a list? “any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump,” along with “any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation”. The latter clause is what likely dooms the argument. But not even Mueller is arguing that he can investigate anything that he sees fit. (I believe Manafort is arguing that the mandate to investigate “any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation" is overly broad under the statute which allows for the appointment of independent counsels, but I’m guessing that won’t cut it either.) > [@Fubaya](#): > > The Office of Special Counsel is an office of the United States Department of Justice. Under DOJ regulation 28 CFR Part 600 the Special Counsel has “the full power and independent authority to exercise all investigative and prosecutorial functions of any United States Attorney.” I believe that just means that once he is empowered to investigate something, he has full investigative and prosecutorial powers, e.g. subpoena, grand jury, indictment etc. > [@Leaper](#): > > Sure, but he hasn’t. And Trump hasn’t been acting like it’s untrue either. > > Makes you wonder, don’t it? Trump doesn’t know what Bannon said or didn’t say. But in any event, whatever you personally believe is most likely might not be conclusive in court. (FWIW, more on Wolff [here](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/01/04/michael-wolffs-trump-book-the-latest-in-a-career-of-controversy/?utm_term=.b53f46f2b46b).) ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1453 "2018-01-04T13:16:35Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > So let’s get this straight: Trump takes the excerpts about the book seriously enough to trash Bannon on twitter, but as for the rest of the book…??? He only commented on what was read to him. He’s otherwise unable to read any book past the title page. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1454 "2018-01-04T13:34:23Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > He only commented on what was read to him. He’s otherwise unable to read any book past the title page. It seems to be universally noted among those close to Donald is that he does not read anything. Even bullet points are too much for his attention span. How did he manage to get through high school, let alone college, with such disdain for reading and a total lack of curiosity? ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1455 "2018-01-04T13:43:58Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > How did he manage to get through high school, let alone college, with such disdain for reading and a total lack of curiosity? Ego and narcissism? ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1456 "2018-01-04T13:51:05Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I believe that just means that once he is empowered to investigate something, he has full investigative and prosecutorial powers, e.g. subpoena, grand jury, indictment etc. If you could point to the section of 28 CFR Part 600 that limits which crimes can be charged, that’d be great. The only semi-limiting language says that if the Special Counsel find something unrelated to their investigation, they will consult the attorney general as to whether it’s better that they prosecute it or turn it over to someone else. But this is just for administrative purposes so the special counsel isn’t required to waste time on a side quest. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > But not even Mueller is arguing that he can investigate anything that he sees fit. I hadn’t realized Mueller was arguing anything. Could you point us to his argument? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1457 "2018-01-04T13:58:49Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > How did he manage to get through high school, let alone college, with such disdain for reading and a total lack of curiosity? Probably millions of people get through college while maintain a disdain for reading and a total lack of curiosity. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1458 "2018-01-04T14:08:05Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > It seems to be universally noted among those close to Donald is that he does not read anything. Even bullet points are too much for his attention span. How did he manage to get through high school, let alone college, with such disdain for reading and a total lack of curiosity? If you watch videos of him speaking from 20 years ago, it’s night and day, at least for me. I think it’s likely that he was once a relatively sharp guy, even if he was still a narcissistic egomaniacal abuser of women. Now, perhaps, all that sharpness is gone, and all that remains is the egomania and bad feelings. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1459 "2018-01-04T14:09:37Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Probably millions of people get through college while maintain a disdain for reading and a total lack of curiosity. But good heavens, it seems like he could not focus for the length of a multiple choice exam. You have to read some and study some to get through, yet he has the attention span of a fruit fly. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1460 "2018-01-04T14:10:13Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > It seems to be universally noted among those close to Donald is that he does not read anything. Even bullet points are too much for his attention span. How did he manage to get through high school, let alone college, with such disdain for reading and a total lack of curiosity? Donald Trump, simply put, has lived his entire life as a complete scam artist and fraud. In one of the history’s greatest ironies, the only reason we ever heard about Donald Trump in the context of anything beyond a massive failure after the year 1995 is the fact that he had so much debt that it was worth it to creditors to negotiate better bankruptcy terms - and that his name brand was (for reasons that only make sense to people who lived through the 1980s) valuable enough for Trump to make royalties. He’s not a successful businessman; he _is_ successful at marketing and making such a great spectacle of himself that he puts people’s asses in seats. He’s a showman. A forerunner to today’s YouTube star. He’s not really good with money, but he has - like a welfare cheat - figured out (barely legal and probably blatantly illegal) ways to use modern systems of global finance and the tax code to keep his yacht afloat. Sorry if I sound like a broken record but I really go back to what I believe is his greatest fear of the Mueller probe: that court documents will reveal that he owes hundreds of millions (or more) in debt to Russian thugs and that he’s a fake billionaire. He’s afraid that some plumber in Toledo will eventually realize that he’s actually a better businessman that Donald Trump. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=72) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=74)