# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 74
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1461 "2018-01-04T14:10:50Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > If you could point to the section of 28 CFR Part 600 that limits which crimes can be charged, that’d be great. It works backwards. There’s no need for a section limiting which crimes. His authority is to investigate certain crimes. Everything else is naturally excluded. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1462 "2018-01-04T14:21:48Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It works backwards. There’s no need for a section limiting which crimes. His authority is to investigate certain crimes. Everything else is naturally excluded. You seem to have left out this part of **Fubaya’s** quote. > [@](#): > > The only semi-limiting language says that if the Special Counsel find something unrelated to their investigation, they will consult the attorney general as to whether it’s better that they prosecute it or turn it over to someone else. But this is just for administrative purposes so the special counsel isn’t required to waste time on a side quest. Which answers your question. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1463 "2018-01-04T14:23:56Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > You seem to have left out this part of **Fubaya’s** quote. No need to quote it, as my response rendered it moot. > [@](#): > > Which answers your question. Quite a feat, considering that I’ve not asked any question. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1464 "2018-01-04T14:25:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If you watch videos of him speaking from 20 years ago, it’s night and day, at least for me. I think it’s likely that he was once a relatively sharp guy, even if he was still a narcissistic egomaniacal abuser of women. Now, perhaps, all that sharpness is gone, and all that remains is the egomania and bad feelings. Trump was never an intellectual - not even in his days at Penn. I almost get the sense that Donald Trump carries some sort of life-long grudge with him from his days in Penn’s ivory tower. A rich guy without class who has a pathological hatred of rich or even upper middle-class people with class. He has a disdain for Jeff Bezos and some no-name Princeton science professor all the same. He was never intellectual, but he tried to compensate for it by being a successful anti-intellectual. And the way to do that is simply to become so wealthy that intellect doesn’t matter. Trump is a shit businessman but he knows how to make a quick buck, and that instinct has served him well - to the detriment of pretty much anyone he does business with of course, but that’s beside the point. His insecurities as an intellectual lightweight are probably what drive his energy in his “business” exploits. I get the sense that Trump derives a perverse sense of pleasure at conning people. A sort of unwritten rule of business deals is that both sides usually get something out of it - that’s not how Trump works. I get the sense that Trump has to win, that he has to get the blacker side of the transaction. My sense is that in his world, there are only winners and losers, and he has to win, which means the others around him…have to lose. There are no ties. Trump’s been good at sticking it to others his whole life. But eventually, someone’s going to stick it to him. When someone chooses to live in the company of rats, they’ll eventually get bitten by one of his own kind, one who’s sharper and meaner. Maybe Steve Bannon is that guy. Trump might be in a state of mental decline and maybe Bannon sees it and tried to take advantage of it. ---
**Author:** ![Celidin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Celidin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celidin)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1465 "2018-01-04T14:26:40Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > But good heavens, it seems like he could not focus for the length of a multiple choice exam. You have to read some and study some to get through, yet he has the attention span of a fruit fly. Wasn’t there talk like a year ago during the campaign about how his (alleged) abuse of diet pills (allegedly) lead to his reduction of mental facilities? It’s entirely possible that he was a decent enough student to make it through HS/College based on his “average” level of mental capacity plus his name, money and connections? And that since then, 4-5 decades of drug abuse, poor food choices, etc have lead to his current insane, unhinged, short-attention-span state? I suspect it was the drugs. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1466 "2018-01-04T14:34:02Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > … How did he manage to get through high school, let alone college, with such disdain for reading and a total lack of curiosity? > [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > Ego and narcissism? Cash. He likely paid other students to take his tests, write his papers, and even attend class for him. I occasionally attended big lecture classes and took notes for my first husband when he had to work. Back then there wasn’t the electronic tracking of everything. We’re talking paper and pencil (remember them?). Money greases a lot of wheels. And when the minimum wage was under $2.00 it wouldn’t take much money to lubricate your way to a college degree. Hell, he probably bribed his way through high school, too. Ironically, Twitter is ideal for him, because the length of the message is perfectly tailored to fit the short length of his attention span. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1467 "2018-01-04T14:35:33Z")
He’s notorious for claiming that he doesn’t drink or do drugs. Whether that’s true or not, I can’t say. But it is a common refrain. Sent from my RCT6973W43 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1468 "2018-01-04T14:38:39Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > No need to quote it, as my response rendered it moot. > > Quite a feat, considering that I’ve not asked any question. He’s not limited to “certain crimes”. He can investigate or, at his discretion, turn over anything he comes across to others. ---
**Author:** ![Celidin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Celidin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celidin)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1469 "2018-01-04T14:41:19Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > He’s notorious for claiming that he doesn’t drink or do drugs. > > Whether that’s true or not, I can’t say. But it is a common refrain. > > Sent from my RCT6973W43 using Tapatalk That’s very true he does claim he doesn’t do drugs or drink. But he also claims many things that are blantantly false, so we can’t take his word for anything. But even assuming that it’s a true statement, does he classify “prescriptions” as “drugs”? He was [supposedly prescribed](http://gawker.com/rumor-doctor-prescribes-donald-trump-cheap-speed-1782901680) said diet pills, so they may not be classified as [illegal] drugs. I mean, come on - if he doesn’t do prescriptions at all, the man’s gotta be ready to drop dead soon? At his weight/age/McDonalds habit, I’d imagine he’s got to be on high-cholesterol and high-blood-pressure meds at least, if not type-2 diabetes or other similar prescriptions. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1470 "2018-01-04T14:43:18Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > He’s notorious for claiming that he doesn’t drink or do drugs. > > Whether that’s true or not, I can’t say. But it is a common refrain… Even though every time he opens his mouth he’s lying, for some reason I’m inclined to believe that he doesn’t drink and that he doesn’t take illegal drugs. But he, like many other people, may be in denial that prescription drugs (pain pills, diet pills, sleep aids) can be problematic. \*“These aren’t drugs! My doctor prescribed them!” \* I dunno. ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1471 "2018-01-04T14:45:23Z")
> [@](#): > > He’s notorious for claiming that he doesn’t drink or do drugs. he is also notorious for telling lies - but it could be true, he got this way because he has dementia. explains everything. but it’s hard to believe he hasn’t tried diet pills, he has to hate being so fat. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1472 "2018-01-04T14:54:45Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It works backwards. There’s no need for a section limiting which crimes. His authority is to investigate certain crimes. Everything else is naturally excluded. This is simply false. His authority is to investigate certain events and any crimes that he may uncover as part of that investigation. If he discovers that Manafort was camping in Yellowstone without a permit, there is nothing that prevents Mueller from prosecuting that as long as the Attorney General says ok. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1473 "2018-01-04T15:11:20Z")
> [@JackieLikesVariety](#): > > he is also notorious for telling lies - but it could be true, he got this way because he has dementia. > > explains everything. > > but it’s hard to believe he hasn’t tried diet pills, he has to hate being so fat. One would think, though, that a man addicted to diet pill would be so, well, corpulent. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1474 "2018-01-04T15:17:25Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > One would think, though, that a man addicted to diet pill would be so, well, corpulent. Trump isn’t fat, or corpulent; Trump is morbidly obese. And of he isn’t on some medication he must have the worst doctors in the world. No morbidly obese elderly person makes it this far without meds. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1475 "2018-01-04T15:22:38Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > One would think, though, that a man addicted to diet pill would be so, well, corpulent. He’s on the McDonald’s Diet. That more than cancels out the pills. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1476 "2018-01-04T15:48:40Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > He only commented on what was read to him. He’s otherwise unable to read any book past the title page. _Heh. “Fire and Fury.” It was so fuckin’ cool when I said that. This book is gonna be GREAT!_ —D. America-hating fuckstick, POTUS ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1477 "2018-01-04T15:54:13Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Your last sentence seems to be a completely separate argument from the rest of what you write here, and also seems to be incorrect. Mueller was in private practice and was appointed to prosecute a specific set of possible crimes. I highly doubt if he can “prosecute any crime he sees fit”. Wut? How is Mueller’s previous job at his private firm relevant to the powers of his current appointment? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1478 "2018-01-04T17:43:42Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Wut? How is Mueller’s previous job at his private firm relevant to the powers of his current appointment? It’s relevant in that he does not have a general position at the DOJ beyond the specific appointment as IC. So he doesn’t have whatever power that general appointment might have given him, but only that which was given to him for the purpose of this specific investigation. > [@Fubaya](#): > > This is simply false. His authority is to investigate certain events and any crimes that he may uncover as part of that investigation. If he discovers that Manafort was camping in Yellowstone without a permit, there is nothing that prevents Mueller from prosecuting that as long as the Attorney General says ok. You’re scaling back the original claim significantly. The original claim was that Mueller is “a duly-appointed federal prosecutor and can prosecute any crime he sees fit”. You’re now limiting that to “any crimes that he may uncover as part of that investigation”, which is something else. FWIW, Manafort would quite possibly agree that if, as part of his investigation, Mueller uncovered camping without a permit, that he could prosecute it. What he’s alleging here is that Mueller didn’t uncover Manafort’s financial crimes as part of his investigation of Trump-Russia ties, but rather set out to investigate them on their own, as being a related matter. So it’s more like if Mueller didn’t happen to find out as part of the Russia investigation that Manafort had been camping without a permit, but just decided that “camping without a permit” is a related matter and investigated it directly. As previous, I think Mueller will likely prevail on the notion that Manafort’s activities were related. But that’s not the reasons you’ve been arguing here, i.e. that Mueller can just investigate whatever he wants. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1479 "2018-01-04T17:52:34Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It’s relevant in that he does not have a general position at the DOJ beyond **the specific appointment as IC.** So he doesn’t have whatever power that general appointment might have given him, but only that which was given to him for the purpose of this specific investigation.You’re scaling back the original claim significantly. The original claim was that Mueller is “a duly-appointed federal prosecutor and can prosecute any crime he sees fit”. You’re now limiting that to “any crimes that he may uncover as part of that investigation”, which is something else. > > FWIW, Manafort would quite possibly agree that if, as part of his investigation, Mueller uncovered camping without a permit, that he could prosecute it. What he’s alleging here is that Mueller didn’t uncover Manafort’s financial crimes as part of his investigation of Trump-Russia ties, but rather set out to investigate them on their own, as being a related matter. So it’s more like if Mueller didn’t happen to find out as part of the Russia investigation that Manafort had been camping without a permit, but just decided that “camping without a permit” is a related matter and investigated it directly. > > As previous, I think Mueller will likely prevail on the notion that Manafort’s activities were related. But that’s not the reasons you’ve been arguing here, i.e. that Mueller can just investigate whatever he wants. Special Counsel. The position of Independent Counsel ceased to exist in 1999. [From here.](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-powers-and-limits-of-robert-muellers-new-job-as-special-counsel/) > [@](#): > > **Q. What will Mueller do as special counsel?** > > A. Mueller is supposed to carry on the investigation that former FBI Director James Comey told Congress about before he was fired by President Donald Trump. That includes any links between Trump campaign associates and Russia, as well as “any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation,” according to the letter appointing him. > > **Q. What are a special counsel’s powers?** > > A. Under Justice Department regulations, a special counsel has all the authority of a U.S. attorney, including the ability to initiate investigations, subpoena records and bring criminal charges. One difference, however: Special counsels get to choose whether they inform the Justice Department what they’re up to. Before taking “significant” actions, however, the special counsel must notify the attorney general. > > **Q. Could a special counsel investigate things beyond simply the Russia connection?** > > A. Mueller has a broad mandate to determine the course of an investigation, but not an unlimited one. If he decides that something outside the scope of the letter appointing him needs investigating, he would have to ask for permission to expand his probe. > > **Q. What’s the difference between a special counsel and a special prosecutor or an independent counsel?** > > A. Independent counsels or special prosecutors don’t exist anymore. These are titles that were established by law following Watergate, and they expired in 1999. The Justice Department created regulations to keep the concept alive in the form of the special counsel. Patrick Fitzgerald, the former U.S. attorney appointed to investigate the outing of CIA agent Valerie Plame, was one. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1480 "2018-01-04T17:55:07Z")
Sorry for the imprecise terminology. Also thanks for the cite, which confirms what I’ve been saying in this discussion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=73) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=75)