# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 75
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1481 "2018-01-04T18:18:15Z")
I assume you were absent the day in middle school when you were supposed to learn that executive appointments may be made by inferior officers, pursuant to legislation or departmental regulations. Mueller is a federal prosecutor with all the same powers as any other appointed officer within the DOJ. His appointment letter defines the scope of his assigned duties; it does not limit his jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1482 "2018-01-04T19:21:47Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The original claim was that Mueller is “a duly-appointed federal prosecutor and can prosecute any crime he sees fit”. You’re now limiting that to “any crimes that he may uncover as part of that investigation”, which is something else. No, the original claim by you was that Mueller could only prosecute a certain set of specific crimes. This is false and you haven’t even attempted to defend that statement. You’re in a different argument than everyone else. I didn’t notice it at the time but your next post shifted to whether Mueller could _investigate_ anything he wanted and now you seem to be pretending that’s what everyone else is saying and you’re arguing against it. Only problem is, no one ever said that. If you want to argue that Mueller can’t start prosecuting, say, Exxon for safety violations, you’re welcome to waste your time doing that, but stop trying to transform what everyone else says into that. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > As previous, I think Mueller will likely prevail on the notion that Manafort’s activities were related. Mueller probably won’t make any argument at all except that Manafort should file his case the appropriate court, then it’ll get thrown out. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1483 "2018-01-04T19:25:37Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > I assume you were absent the day in middle school when you were supposed to learn that executive appointments may be made by inferior officers, pursuant to legislation or departmental regulations. Mueller is a federal prosecutor with all the same powers as any other appointed officer within the DOJ. His appointment letter defines the scope of his assigned duties; it does not > limit his jurisdiction. I assume he was absent from middle school. And high school. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1484 "2018-01-04T19:40:58Z")
Its gonna be the money. Money leaves tracks, it can be followed. Trump got hit with a $25 million fine for his Trump University scam, how many of those can he handle before he’s living under a bridge in the Hamptons? It appears to me that what Il Douche fears most of all is transparency about his dealings before he ran. Seems to me that if even some of these things are true and provable…and, Lordy, there’s a whole bunch of them!..and the courts applied the sternest penalties…he could be broke. Penniless. That’s the lever. Leave quietly, and we’ll go easy on you, make a problem, and you still go, but live as the object of charitable giving. Sign right here. Adios, motherfucker. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1485 "2018-01-04T19:44:07Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > No, the original claim by you was that Mueller could only prosecute a certain set of specific crimes. This is false and you haven’t even attempted to defend that statement. The original claim was the one I quoted and responded to. ISTM that you’re weaseling here. > [@running\_coach](#): > > I assume he was absent from middle school. And high school. Pretty ironic from a guy who is apparently incapable of understanding something he himself cited and quoted. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1486 "2018-01-04T19:47:56Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The original claim was the one I quoted and responded to. ISTM that you’re weaseling here. > > Pretty ironic from a guy who is apparently incapable of understanding something he himself cited and quoted. What part did I misunderstand? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1487 "2018-01-04T20:02:08Z")
The thing is, **elucidator** , it’s not enough to leave him flat broke. He may well already be beyond that. The problem isn’t that he has a lot of money; the problem is that he’s rich, which is something else entirely. You figure out how to make him no longer rich, and then we’ll talk. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1488 "2018-01-04T20:29:15Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The thing is, **elucidator** , it’s not enough to leave him flat broke. He may well already be beyond that. The problem isn’t that he has a lot of money; the problem is that he’s rich, which is something else entirely. You figure out how to make him no longer rich, and then we’ll talk. > [@](#): > > Billy Ray Valentine: Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by turning them into poor people. [Trading Places](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086465/quotes) ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1489 "2018-01-04T20:46:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Its gonna be the money. Money leaves tracks, it can be followed. Trump got hit with a $25 million fine for his Trump University scam, how many of those can he handle before he’s living under a bridge in the Hamptons? It appears to me that what Il Douche fears most of all is transparency about his dealings before he ran. > > Seems to me that if even some of these things are true and provable…and, Lordy, there’s a whole bunch of them!..and the courts applied the sternest penalties…he could be broke. Penniless. That’s the lever. Leave quietly, and we’ll go easy on you, make a problem, and you still go, but live as the object of charitable giving. Sign right here. Adios, motherfucker. While I agree that there is little doubt that there is a shit ton of dirty money that will be uncovered, I’m less convinced that this will result in consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1490 "2018-01-04T20:53:15Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The original claim was the one I quoted and responded to. ISTM that you’re weaseling here. I don’t have a problem with that claim, I have a problem with your claim that Mueller… > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > was appointed to prosecute a specific set of possible crimes. If you mean that he was appointed to _investigate_ a specific _event_, I would mostly agree. But that’s not what you said. You said he could only _prosecute specific crimes_. I don’t want to speak for everyone else but my argument is that he can prosecute any crime _in the book_, not just specific crimes as you claim. That, I believe, is why people have asked for a list of which crimes he can and cannot prosecute. But you keep ignoring that and pretend we are saying he can _investigate_ any crime _in the country_. No one is saying that. If you want to back up your statement that Mueller “was appointed to prosecute a specific set of possible crimes”, please go ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1491 "2018-01-04T21:12:06Z")
I don’t get the distinction between investigate and prosecute, and I was using them interchangeably. He was charged with investigating the Trump-Russia issue and prosecuting any crimes he came across in the context of that investigation. If he went off and investigated something unrelated and then prosecuted for that unrelated matter, then he was overstepping his bounds, and this is Manafort’s argument, FWIW. The counterargument that I was disagreeing with was that he could prosecute for whatever he wanted. If you’re saying that he can’t investigate anything he wants but if he goes ahead and does it anyway then he can prosecute, I can’t prove you’re wrong though it sounds extremely dubious. But if that’s not your argument then you’re making a distinction without a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1492 "2018-01-04T22:28:41Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Leave quietly, and we’ll go easy on you,… That’s what got us here in the first place. Trump was prosecuted for unfair housing practices decades ago, but he cut a deal that let him pay a penalty, and at one of the debates he crowed about how there was “no admission of wrongdoing”. When he pulls a scam and doesn’t get caught, he keeps the proceeds. When he does, he offers restitution, so there’s no downside to trying. If there’s enough to prosecute Trump for, do it; no deals, no terms, nothing he can claim later was a win. He hasn’t earned it. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1493 "2018-01-04T22:36:14Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t get the distinction between investigate and prosecute, and I was using them interchangeably. That, right there, proves what a total idiot you are. (Dumbed down for **F-P’s** feeblemindedness) Investigate-dig up evidence on the asshole. Prosecute-use the evidence to try the asshole in court. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1494 "2018-01-04T22:37:44Z")
Apparently you are unfamiliar with the concept of context. Read up on it. You’ll know something. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1495 "2018-01-04T22:56:25Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t get the distinction between investigate and prosecute, and I was using them interchangeably. **He was charged with investigating the Trump-Russia issue and prosecuting any crimes he came across** in the context of that investigation. If he went off and investigated something unrelated and then prosecuted for that unrelated matter, then he was overstepping his bounds, and this is Manafort’s argument, FWIW. The counterargument that I was disagreeing with was that he could prosecute for whatever he wanted. > > If you’re saying that he can’t investigate anything he wants but if he goes ahead and does it anyway then he can prosecute, I can’t prove you’re wrong though it sounds extremely dubious. But if that’s not your argument then you’re making a distinction without a difference. The part I bolded is what Mueller is allowed to do. If in his investigation of the Trump-Russia matter, he finds evidence that Trump has millions in unpaid parking tickets, he can prosecute that _if he wants to._ Or turn it over to the appropriate state officials. What he can’t do is go looking for unpaid parking tickets on a whim. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1496 "2018-01-04T23:09:39Z")
That’s all fine. But the point here is that - if you accept Manafort’s argument that his pre-campaign actions are unrelated to the Trump-Russia issue - then what Mueller did was the equivalent to “looking for unpaid parking tickets on a whim”, because he directly set out to investigate that matter and did not just come across it in looking at the Trump campaign. So the proper counter to Manafort’s argument is that his pre-campaign actions are related to the Trump-Russia issue. Asserting in the context of this issue that Manafort’s argument fails because “Mueller can prosecute whatever he wants” - the position you are/were defending - is incorrect and misses the point. I’ve explained this before, but I’m repeating it one more time for the benefit of the obstinate partisans and the feebleminded. But that’s about enough even for this subgroup, and silence from this point on should not be interpreted as acquiescence. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1497 "2018-01-04T23:12:48Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That’s all fine. But the point here is that - if you accept Manafort’s argument that his pre-campaign actions are unrelated to the Trump-Russia issue - then what Mueller did was the equivalent to “looking for unpaid parking tickets on a whim”, because he directly set out to investigate that matter and did not just come across it in looking at the Trump campaign. So the proper counter to Manafort’s argument is that his pre-campaign actions are related to the Trump-Russia issue. Asserting in the context of this issue that Manafort’s argument fails because “Mueller can prosecute whatever he wants” - the position you are/were defending -\*\* is incorrect and misses the point.\*\* > > I’ve explained this before, but I’m repeating it one more time for the benefit of the obstinate partisans and the feebleminded. But that’s about enough even for this subgroup, and silence from this point on should not be interpreted as acquiescence. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1498 "2018-01-04T23:17:55Z")
[Mueller’s appointment letter](https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3726381/Robert-Mueller-Special-Counsel-Russia.pdf)(PDF) > [@](#): > > (ii)any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation; and ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1499 "2018-01-05T00:16:28Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [Mueller’s appointment letter](https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3726381/Robert-Mueller-Special-Counsel-Russia.pdf)(PDF) Is there a mercy rule? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1500 "2018-01-05T00:23:50Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Is there a mercy rule? Hell no. Mercy rules are for sissy Liberals and **F-P** spits at sissy Liberals. Though I have a nice participation trophy for him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=74) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=76)