# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 84
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1661 "2018-01-11T21:45:36Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > a) Wanting something to be given a full and proper investigation by the FBI and chanting and indiscriminate, “Lock him up!” are two different things. Agreed. But what we’re discussing at this particular point is not either of these things but rather whether Russians feeding high-impact information to the US gov and media via Steele counts as foreigners influencing the election. > [@](#): > > b) There’s quite a lot on that specific point. Sufficient that even though there’s no smoking gun, the statistical odds that all of those factotums would all be due to random chance seems worth ignoring. Maybe not enough for a court to prosecute, but sufficient to assume that the Trump camp was at least revising the Republican platform in Russia’s favor in order to woo them into releasing information about Clinton, even if there was no direct communication. (The timing of Page’s trip to Russia and his messages about the platform make it unlikely that they weren’t directly communicating.) OK, we disagree about this. > [@](#): > > While I’m willing to believe that Putin is a clever man, I find it implausible that he set up the Russian Collusion storyline at a time when Trump was consistently polling as a losing bet, on the potential that Trump might become the President and not already be sufficiently stupid that you’d be able to dance around him with ease. What’s been suggested as a possible motive for Russian interference in general is wanting to rile up the people and set them against each other (e.g. some Russian trolls were posting BLM stuff to social media) and this would fit. But it could be something else. The world is pretty complex, and I don’t think you can determine what foreign actors are up to simply by ruling out one or two possibilities that you come up with. > [@](#): > > Alternately, if Steele just asked his sources to make up any old thing to help him give some anti-Trump stuff back to Simpson, then there’s no reason for him to go to the FBI and fly out to Rome for a debrief. He’d want to absolutely avoid people who had some chance at actually fact-checking his information and sources. I don’t know what this is addressed to. For purposes of this discussion we can stipulate that Steele had the highest motives. We’re discussing the motives of those who fed him the info. FWIW, my best guess is that Steele set out to do what he was hired to do - dig up some dirt on Trump. And what he got - which is what you commonly get from intelligence sources of the type he consulted - is mostly third hand gossip, of various degrees of veracity. I believe Steele himself would agree with this. But it’s not out of the realm of possibility that some of these Russian government agents who were Steele’s sources had other motives. Again, the question is more about the ultimate source of the information. [In addition, if in theory one were to doubt Steele’s motives specifically, I disagree with you anyway. It’s very difficult to prove a negative, and the FBI would be hard-pressed to conclusively refute the dossier allegations, especially in time for the election. Meanwhile the mere news that the FBI is investigating Trump’s Russian contacts could be expected to have enormous impact on its own, regardless of what the FBI ultimately concluded, most likely well after the election. So a theoretical Steele motivated to take down Trump would have every incentive to go to the FBI anyway. But that’s all just FWIW. I’m not claiming he had this motive.] ---
**Author:** ![Anny\_Middon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc79bd/32.png) [@Anny\_Middon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anny_Middon)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1662 "2018-01-11T22:33:47Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > It’s particularly bizarre in his case. Somebody should sit him down and explain to him that everybody already knows his “secret”… I’m not so sure. I know I’m aging myself with this example, but there were people who were shocked to find out that Liberace was gay. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1663 "2018-01-11T22:44:50Z")
> [@](#): > > …WIW, my best guess is that Steele set out to do what he was hired to do - dig up some dirt on Trump. And what he got - which is what you commonly get from intelligence sources of the type he consulted - is mostly third hand gossip, of various degrees of veracity. I believe Steele himself would agree with this. But it’s not out of the realm of possibility that some of these Russian government agents who were Steele’s sources had other motives. Again, the question is more about the ultimate source of the information… Let it be noted that I am personally very impressed by the depth of your knowledge and expertise on intelligence gathering! I’d ask how you came by it, but don’t want you to have to kill me. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1664 "2018-01-11T22:48:05Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I’m sure many of them have their own dirt, and getting connected to trump means that your dirt may get uncovered. I can’t believe that our deal with the devil had unforeseen consequences! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1665 "2018-01-11T22:54:46Z")
> [@Anny\_Middon](#): > > I’m not so sure. > > I know I’m aging myself with this example, but there were people who were shocked to find out that Liberace was gay. Well, maybe, as if anyone should care. But it also could be the manner and mannerisms of the “genteel” class of Southern men in times gone by. Not that common anymore, but not necessarily effeminate. I expect Sen Graham goes hunting, and probably actually shoots something. (Liberace didn’t surprise me at all, but Rock Hudson? That one was hard to, ah, swallow. And I still think David Bowie was putting us on…) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1666 "2018-01-11T22:56:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **elucidator** : > > Putin wants his Exxon deal back. He cannot help but see the installation of his partner in that venture, the current SecState, as a major signal of approval. He needs that money, he and his buds have stolen it all, and they need more before the people start weaponizing their vodka. After that, comes weakening NATO and the European alliance, among other heinous intentions. Come on, there’s no actual proof that Trump named the CEO of Exxon as his Secretary of State. That’s all just liberal speculation! Why, I’m sure that a full, fair, and impartial investigation would reveal that Rex Tillerson was a lifelong state department civil servant, who’d paid his dues and built up an impressive profile of foreign relations yeoman’s work. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1667 "2018-01-12T00:37:38Z")
> [@Anny\_Middon](#): > > I’m not so sure. > > I know I’m aging myself with this example, but there were people who were shocked to find out that Liberace was gay. Lindsey Graham is gay? How long have we known this? ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1668 "2018-01-12T01:12:08Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > If I’m correctly identifying your antecedent, it’s my understanding that he’s already retired. He was still working in 2016. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > … what you commonly get from intelligence sources of the type he consulted - is mostly third hand gossip, of various degrees of veracity. I believe Steele himself would agree with this. … I think the former head of the MI6 Russia Desk and a highly regarded private intelligence consultant probably has decent sources. ---
**Author:** ![SaneBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SaneBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaneBill)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1669 "2018-01-12T02:45:25Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Lindsey Graham is gay? How long have we known this? Something tells me that his parents knew it very early… ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1670 "2018-01-12T03:42:02Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Agreed. But what we’re discussing at this particular point is not either of these things but rather whether Russians feeding high-impact information to the US gov and media via Steele counts as foreigners influencing the election. Especially since the Steele dossier WASN’T RELEASED UNTIL AFTER THE ELECTION. > [@elucidator](#): > > Let it be noted that I am personally very impressed by the depth of your knowledge and expertise on intelligence gathering! I’d ask how you came by it, but don’t want you to have to kill me. You dropped your sarcasm tag. It’s ok, I took it home and gave it some food and water and a new toy. Stop by any time to pick it up. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1671 "2018-01-12T14:19:06Z")
> [@j666](#): > > I think the former head of the MI6 Russia Desk and a highly regarded private intelligence consultant probably has decent sources. I agree. But “decent sources” means sources who have access to “mostly third hand gossip, of various degrees of veracity”. It’s a lot more than you and I could come up with. As previous, I don’t think Steele himself disagrees with this. > [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Especially since the Steele dossier WASN’T RELEASED UNTIL AFTER THE ELECTION. It wasn’t “released” ever. Buzzfeed decided to publish it on their own. But that’s how these things work. The dossier was shopped around to various media entities before the election. Happens that none of them chose to publish it at that time. But it was certainly being used in a manner which would have influenced the election had it been successful. [The way it eventually got published was that it was presented in intelligence reports to Obama and Trump, which made it “news regardless of its veracity” and gave justification for publication. FWIW, it’s been speculated that one big reason it was promoted in intelligence circles was for this exact reason - so as to get the media to publish it. But that’s speculation.] ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1672 "2018-01-12T17:01:56Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > But what we’re discussing at this particular point is not either of these things but rather whether Russians feeding high-impact information to the US gov and media via Steele counts as foreigners influencing the election. Once more, we see the contemptible equating of using an investigator to check into mob ties, to someone hiring the mob to do criminal activities for them. F-P, those are not equivalent. One is honorable, one is dishonorable. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1673 "2018-01-12T17:09:42Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Once more, we see the contemptible equating of using an investigator to check into mob ties, to someone hiring the mob to do criminal activities for them. I’ve explained repeatedly why this is logically flawed. Not sure that “once is enough” in this case, but several times should be enough, I would think … ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1674 "2018-01-12T17:15:18Z")
Its right there, just look! Clearly, the Russians were up to no good, so, naturally, they fed Steele “info” so that he could reveal their perfidy. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1675 "2018-01-12T17:33:52Z")
> [@Latin Phrases - For the Helluvit](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/latin-phrases-for-the-helluvit/107604/18): > > But that’s how these things work. **The dossier was shopped around to various media entities before the election**. Happens that none of them chose to publish it at that time. But it was certainly being used in a manner which would have influenced the election had it been successful. Cite for the part I bolded, please? Also, what do you mean “shopped around”? What does the word “shopped” mean in this context, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1676 "2018-01-12T18:03:10Z")
What happens if the “only” thing that the investigation uncovers is a decades long history of massive money laundering, and the Russian collusion remains smoky, but no smoking gun? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1677 "2018-01-12T18:04:55Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > What happens if the “only” thing that the investigation uncovers is a decades long history of massive money laundering, and the Russian collusion remains smoky, but no smoking gun? Money laundering is still illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1678 "2018-01-12T18:06:51Z")
I know. But would it be impeachable? Not in the “high crimes and misdemeanors” sense, but the “Republicans will suddenly be forced to give a shit” sense. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1679 "2018-01-12T18:07:25Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Money laundering is still illegal. Yup. Money laundering, tax evasion, obstruction of justice … plenty of opportunities for indictments and impeachment even if no collusion/quid-pro-quo smoking gun ever turns up (although I’m sure it will, eventually). ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/1680 "2018-01-12T18:12:07Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > I know. But would it be impeachable? Not in the “high crimes and misdemeanors” sense, but the “Republicans will suddenly be forced to give a shit” sense. You have to think in terms of two parallel tracks. The criminal investigation (under Mueller) will continue, and may very well produce indictments for money laundering, etc. of Jared & Ivanka & Junior & Carter Page… Impeachment of DJT Himself is a political question. As long as Republicans control the House, nothing (up to and including shooting someone on 5th Avenue) is impeachable. If Democrats take control…well, they have enough material already. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=83) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=85)