A thread just for discussing the Mitchell Report

Cafe Society
61

[QUOTE=Trunk]
McGwire essentially admitted it to Congress.
[/quote]

This testimony is what you’re damning McGwire for?

[QUOTE=Mark McGwire]
I am not here to talk about the past. I’m here to talk about the present. Steroids are wrong. Don’t take them. It gives you nothing but false hope. There is a problem with steroid use in baseball. If a player answers ‘No,’ he simply will not be believed. If he answers ‘Yes,’ he risks public scorn and endless government investigations. Asking me or any other player to answer questions about who took steroids in front of television cameras will not solve the problem. What anybody can do to improve it so that there’s no more meetings like this, I’m all for it. What I will not do, however, is participate in naming names and implicating my friends.
[/QUOTE]

If you want to say that’s concrete proof he juiced, I surely can’t change your mind. But if those words had been spoken by Cal Ripken, everyone would be applauding his toughness for standing up to the big, mean, old Congress.

But coming from McGwire, everyone treats it as an admission.

[QUOTE=Trunk]
Evidence in Sosa’s corner? You mean “lack of physical evidence” that he did it.
[/quote]

Exactly my point. There is NO EVIDENCE AT ALL tying Sosa to steroids, your gut feeling notwithstanding. Why does your gut override my gut?

And has been pointed by others in this thread, Sosa is a bit of a dim bulb. If anyone was going to get caught, it was him.

62

Steroids make for better viewing. Keep up the good work. They can still go to HGH. The game like the Olympics and Cycling will never be clean. a battle of chemists is in our future.

63

[QUOTE=Justin_Bailey]
This testimony is what you’re damning McGwire for?
[/quote]

He also refused to say he hadn’t cheated. You don’t have to be an expert at reading between the lines to know what that meant.

64

[QUOTE=gazpacho]
The Trucker popping pills to stay awake vs the baseball player juicing. For me the question is: What is the whole point of the exercise? With trucking it is to get goods from one place to another and popping pills does facilitate that. Baseball on the other hand is a sporting competition with no other end than the enjoyment of watching a competition. When the competition is unfair it kinda ruins the whole point of baseball.
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Negative. From the perspective of the trucker and the baseball player, both “exercises” are occupations, and in performing their occupations, each wants to maximize his ability to get the job done and thus receive the material rewards that go along with success. The trucker gets his goods to the shipment point faster, gets paid for it, and gets back out on the road sooner, thus increasing his opportunities for income. The ball player performs better (at least by some standards) and recovers from injury faster, thus getting a major league roster spot (and at least the major league minimum salary) vs. a minor league spot (and smaller paycheck); or, for a star player, he puts up even bigger numbers than he would naturally and subsequently gets a bigger contract. Either way, you have someone who artificially enhances his ability to do the job in order to receive better remuneration down the line. A valid comparison.

65

There’s a bit of a disconnect here. I mean, it was a pitcher’s era. It’s an uneniable fact that the offensive environment is in constant flux, in baseball as in other sports (that this list cuts off at 1957 is regrettable, since runs per game averaged about 9 from '49-'57, which wouldn’t be true again for another 35 years). At different times it can be generally easier (or harder) to score runs, and this was true long before steroids were ever an issue.

Here is a rational statistical analysis of some issues involving steroids from some people that don’t have a dog in this fight. As they note in passing, please consider that a huge part of the reason for the increased offensive output of the past 15 years is smaller strikezones and smaller ballparks. If you shave off two inches of the plate on either side, then replace the Polo Grounds with Coors field, that’s going to affect the number of home runs you get.

66

[QUOTE=Justin_Bailey]
This testimony is what you’re damning McGwire for?

If you want to say that’s concrete proof he juiced, I surely can’t change your mind. But if those words had been spoken by Cal Ripken, everyone would be applauding his toughness for standing up to the big, mean, old Congress.

But coming from McGwire, everyone treats it as an admission.

Exactly my point. There is NO EVIDENCE AT ALL tying Sosa to steroids, your gut feeling notwithstanding. Why does your gut override my gut?

And has been pointed by others in this thread, Sosa is a bit of a dim bulb. If anyone was going to get caught, it was him.
[/QUOTE]

There is not NO EVIDENCE AT ALL.

There is plenty of circumstantial evidence.

He put together 3 of the greatest home run seasons ever, some that came well after what should have been the peak of his career.

His body ballooned to outrageous proportions.

He did it during a time that we now know that baseball was rife with steroid abuse.

You really want to sit here and say, “he never tested positive” or “he was never seen doing it”? Get real.

And, Marley answered your question about McGwire. Besides, we already know he did steroids. He did andro. No, it wasn’t banned by the majors at the time, but he did it. It is banned by WADA.

67

[QUOTE=Trunk]
There is plenty of circumstantial evidence.
[/quote]

There’s plenty of heresay and conjecture, those are kinds of evidence… quoth Lionel Hutz.

His peak seasons came in his early 30s. That’s not “well after” what should have been his peak. Yes, it’s slightly later, but again, Sosa changed his hitting style in his early 30s. Why is that ignored?

Search his baseball cards on eBay. While his weight may have changed, his arms did not balloon up like the steroid poster children, Bonds and McGwire.

Everybody was using, so he was too… is that your argument? Because that’s pretty weak.

68

[QUOTE=Trunk]

There is plenty of circumstantial evidence.

He put together 3 of the greatest home run seasons ever, some that came well after what should have been the peak of his career.

His body ballooned to outrageous proportions.

He did it during a time that we now know that baseball was rife with steroid abuse.

[/QUOTE]

Fair enough, but there is absolutely ZERO corroborating evidence. The same cannot be said for the others.

69

[QUOTE=Justin_Bailey]
Search his baseball cards on eBay. While his weight may have changed, his arms did not balloon up like the steroid poster children, Bonds and McGwire.

[/QUOTE]

Photos

Look at 1 & 2, and then at 15.

Whatever. . .believe what you want. Even if finally hearing that people thought Sosa’s 66 home runs are suspicious, you at least need to be pretty psyched that Santa will be by in 11 days.

70

[QUOTE=Omniscient]
Fair enough, but there is absolutely ZERO corroborating evidence. The same cannot be said for the others.
[/QUOTE]

You’re right. I’m guilty for getting this into a Sosa discussion. I just didn’t think there were actually people out there who didn’t think he juiced. I don’t mean to just implicate Sosa. I don’t like him any more or less than I do Bonds, Clemens, or Ripken. Really, I don’t care about players very much at all, compared to how much I like the game.

It’s just that all this stuff that was said about the others was said about Sosa. When they finally tracked down the strength and conditioning coaches that worked with these guys, voila, turns out they do have corroborating evidence.

Mitchell’s failure to get Sosa’s conditioning coach to testify doesn’t change what everyone know that testimony would be.

71

[QUOTE=Trunk]
Whatever. . .believe what you want. Even if finally hearing that people thought Sosa’s 66 home runs are suspicious, you at least need to be pretty psyched that Santa will be by in 11 days.
[/QUOTE]

I’ve put on considerable poundage since I was 21 too. But I’m not on steroids, I’m on Pop Tarts.

And I’m thrilled Santa is going to be here soon. I think he’s bringing lots of video games and The Simpsons Movie and a toy rocket launcher. Woo boy!

Of course my Santa is my wife, we just think it’s fun to give gifts with Santa written on the gift tag.

72

[QUOTE=Not A Tame Lion]
Personally, I don’t really care that much who took steroids and who didn’t. I’ve said this before in other contexts, but I’ll repeat it here: beyond the legality/illegality issue, I don’t see such a big difference between taking steroids and getting a cortisone shot for an injury. Steroids are performance enhancing; a cortisone shot isn’t? A player gets injured; he can’t play. He gets a shot; he can play. That enhances his performance. Period. (Before the shot, he can’t perform at all; after, he’s good to go.) Same with “Tommy John” surgery. Some pitchers who have torn up their tendons got a ligament transplant and added 5 mph to their fastballs. It’s hard to believe some players haven’t gotten that surgery even without an injury, just to gain that advantage. And why stop at medical manipulations? These guys don’t ever have to have real jobs; they work out all year, have personal trainers, personal chefs, are miniature businesses unto themselves with the money they make and the corresponding expenditures for keeping themselves world-class athletes. Their whole lives revolve around making themselves into these specialized creatures for our entertainment. Everything about them is artificial. Pro athletes are as different from you and me as a thoroughbred horse is from a pack mule. Does it really matter what they do to make themselves that way, especially if the same actions are being taken by (at least) a majority of their peers?
[/quote]

I completely agree. But sportswriters always need a reason for self-righteousness.

73

[QUOTE=Yookeroo]
I completely agree. But sportswriters always need a reason for self-righteousness.
[/QUOTE]

I think you’ve teased out another part of this equation. This thing is a much bigger deal to the nation’s sportswriters–for whom the event generated several days’ if not weeks’ worth of guaranteed copy–than to most fans. The guys on PTI have admitted as much, even as they too were spinning themselves around in circles over the issue. Though there are few, like Bruce Jenkins in today’s *SF Chronicle, *who have the perspective and are openly saying most fans don’t give a damn about the steroid story. But that’s a minority opinion in the field.

74

The report does not suggest they have a complete list. They have Balco and 2 trainers that gave them info. There are lots of players who juiced.
I wonder if the fact that pitchers were drugging evens the field. Apparently Clemens got a long career out of it. Millions of dollars. was made Who wouldn’t take them.?
I am surprised people are defending some of these guys. While the report does not rise to the level of proof, it must have a good reason to name names. Why are they not liable for suit? They did ask everyone named to come in and defend themselves. No one did. Now they have something to say.