# A tie?! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 13, 2010, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tie/542989 "2010-06-13T05:02:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tie/542989/121 "2010-06-22T21:45:41Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Yeah, this is exactly the kind of contentless reply I’ve learned to expect from soccer fans. What else am I supposed to do when you simply aren’t listening to people that know more than you? You’re coming across in this thread like “Rand Rover does Sport”. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tie/542989/122 "2010-06-23T00:07:27Z")
> [@Cort](#): > > Three things: > > 1. If the ball spends more time in your hands than it does at your feet, you have no right to call whatever the hell it is you’re doing “football”. > > 2. If, amidst all this throwing and catching, you have to stop for a rest every ten seconds like they do during the Superbowl, you have no right to call this weird activity a sport. > > 3. 😛 I’m a red-neck, gun-owning American, and I endorse this message. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tie/542989/123 "2010-06-26T21:58:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Since his strategy is going to be defined to some extent by his players’ skillsets, months. Sven-Goran Eriksson took over as manager of the Ivory Coast in March, and was considered to be working on an extremely short time frame (ie., 3 months) before the World Cup. > > Most national sides won’t change managers less than a year before a major tournament. This is, at best, a dodge of the question. I didn’t ask how long it would take to form or implement his strategy; I asked how long it would take to explain the intricacies of it once he’d settled on it. > [@amanset](#): > > What else am I supposed to do when you simply aren’t listening to people that know more than you? You’re coming across in this thread like “Rand Rover does Sport”. Oh please. If you’re a soccer expert and I’m wholly ignorant of the intricacies, you should be able to expound on the game to your heart’s content. If the roles were reversed, and you were questioning the virtue of American football in an NFL thread, you can be certain I’d explain the game to you instead of firing off lazy, contentless posts attacking your intelligence. Soccer fans clearly can’t be bothered to do so, and not just in this thread. This is an ongoing pattern for almost a decade that soccer fans never post substantive defenses of their sport, but instead invariably resort to ad hominem attacks. I can only conclude from this a deep-seated and well-earned inferiority complex. As an example, in a [thread during the previous World Cup](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7512765#post7512765), soccer fans were inexplicably unable to concede the point that the time each goal is scored could be tracked. (See post 39 in particular.)This went on for days; no, of course trying to track the official time each goal is scored would fundamentally alter the game itself. God forbid the ref – who stops the game multiple times and takes out a pencil to write stuff down – could ever be asked to write down the official time a goal is scored while the scoring team is doing a pile-on celebration. Oh no, of course not; that’d fundamentally change the game for the worse. This is the kind of insane irrationality I’ve seen time and again from soccer fans. Kudos to you for keeping the tradition alive. At least I can say I’ve contributed an innovative and reasonable [alternative to drawing lots for a tiebreaker](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=540232). What of substance have you ever contributed to a soccer thread? ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tie/542989/124 "2010-06-26T22:06:08Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > What of substance have you ever contributed to a soccer thread? A basic understanding of the subtlety involved in football, a lack of which your thousands of words cannot hide. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tie/542989/125 "2010-06-26T22:14:35Z")
Not proving my point at all. Good job! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tie/542989/126 "2010-06-27T16:58:13Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > This is, at best, a dodge of the question. I didn’t ask how long it would take to form or implement his strategy; I asked how long it would take to explain the intricacies of it once he’d settled on it. That’s a question none of us can answer, because none of us are professional soccer players or coaches. By the same token, you have absolutely no idea how long it takes a coach or manager in any other sport to explain his strategy. For what it’s worth, it took Jurgen Klinnsmann about 90 seconds to explain his managerial _philosophy_ on ESPN this morning. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tie/542989/127 "2010-06-27T19:02:09Z")
Football is played around the world, and has fans numbering in hundreds of millions if not billions. American football is a curiosity outside of the USA despite it’s rabid fanbase and media dominance in its home country. Football wins. Get over it. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tie/542989/128 "2010-06-27T20:21:30Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > Football is played around the world, and has fans numbering in hundreds of millions if not billions. American football is a curiosity outside of the USA despite it’s rabid fanbase and media dominance in its home country. Football wins. Get over it. And McDonald’s is eaten the world over by billions, but I don’t claim it has a more complex flavor than a nice steak paired with wine. I’m a huge soccer fan, but address what he’s saying maybe? ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tie/542989/129 "2010-06-27T21:09:53Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > And McDonald’s is eaten the world over by billions, but I don’t claim it has a more complex flavor than a nice steak paired with wine. > > I’m a huge soccer fan, but address what he’s saying maybe? Sure. Soccer is a superiour game for several reasons. First of which is the accessibility of the game. You don’t have to be particularly big, strong, or even fast to be a good player. Those all help of course, but a decent athlete with phenomenal ball handling skills would be an asset to any team. Compare that to A. Football in which the opposite is true. A truly skilled small man would have no chance of playing seriously. Beyond the hurdles of having to row against the cultural tide, he’d be in far greater danger than any other player, thus making him a net liability. Soccer doesn’t require good genetics, just good health and good attitude. The point of all this is that anyone who is willing to train to their limits might have a shot at playing soccer seriously, A. Football is limited to the genetic elite. Along the same lines, soccer requires little in the way of equipment; making it economical and again, more accessible than A. Football. At it’s most primitive form it requires only a ball; everything else can be mocked up from found materials. It is a game for everybody, not just those who can afford to kit out an entire team with expensive protective equipment. Soccer does not encourage or overtly reward injuring the opponent. Whatever the rules may state, American football certainly encourages the hardest hits that can be delivered. As another poster noted upthread, the equipment has to be revised often just to keep up with the increasing violence of the game. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tie/542989/130 "2010-06-27T22:58:16Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > First of which is the accessibility of the game. You don’t have to be particularly big, strong, or even fast to be a good player. Those all help of course, but a decent athlete with phenomenal ball handling skills would be an asset to any team. Compare that to A. Football in which the opposite is true. A truly skilled small man would have no chance of playing seriously. Beyond the hurdles of having to row against the cultural tide, he’d be in far greater danger than any other player, thus making him a net liability. Soccer doesn’t require good genetics, just good health and good attitude. The point of all this is that anyone who is willing to train to their limits might have a shot at playing soccer seriously, A. Football is limited to the genetic elite. I’ll bet you anything that the range of physical specs is no wider in European football then American. If you see a baseball player, they all have the same physique. If you see a football player, they all have the same physique. If you see a soccer player, they all have the same physique. You simply don’t get to the pros unless you have or develop the body that is ideal for the game. And in terms of simply playing the game for fun, sure, you’re better off to choose to play European football or baseball. And that’s what we do in the US, when we’re kids in school and still play sports. But that has no relevance to spectator sports. As far as spectating goes, you’re better off to choose the one that has more to spectate; strategy, violence, scantily clad girls, running, kicking, throwing, hitting, etc. Otherwise you’re just sitting there watching people run left-right-left-right-left-right-left-right for several hours. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tie/542989/131 "2010-06-27T23:32:21Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > Soccer does not encourage or overtly reward injuring the opponent. Whatever the rules may state, American football certainly encourages the hardest hits that can be delivered. As another poster noted upthread, the equipment has to be revised often just to keep up with the increasing violence of the game. Strictly speaking, trying to injure the other guy in American football is usually a mistake- lots of long runs are given up because players try to lay someone out instead of simply wrapping up. ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tie/542989/132 "2010-06-28T00:31:56Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I’ll bet you anything that the range of physical specs is no wider in European football then American. \ If you see a football player, they all have the same physique. If you see a soccer player, they all have the same physique. Actually, the range is going to be much, much wider in football than in soccer. In football, the physique of defensive lineman is nothing like that of a running back which is nothing like that of a kicker. Admittedly I don’t make a habit of watching soccer, but from what I’ve seen of late, I see little appreciable difference in the physique of the different position players in soccer. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tie/542989/133 "2010-06-28T03:18:52Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > First of which is the accessibility of the game. You don’t have to be particularly big, strong, or even fast to be a good player. Those all help of course, but a decent athlete with phenomenal ball handling skills would be an asset to any team. Compare that to A. Football in which the opposite is true. A truly skilled small man would have no chance of playing seriously. Beyond the hurdles of having to row against the cultural tide, he’d be in far greater danger than any other player, thus making him a net liability. Soccer doesn’t require good genetics, just good health and good attitude. The point of all this is that anyone who is willing to train to their limits might have a shot at playing soccer seriously, A. Football is limited to the genetic elite. This is absolutely false. Ask yourself if women could play professionally against men. Even if it was all about skill, I don’t have a clue why people seem to think that anybody can be as skilled as Ronaldo with practice. Why is being faster than average pure genetics, but being more agile or having better coordination not genetic? Just because practice improves your skill, doesn’t mean genetics isn’t part of it. You get stronger by lifting weights too. Not that this addresses the strategy of soccer. **Ellis Dee** , would you say a large portion of american football plays are running different routes? A lot of it in order to create advantageous player matchups or space for other players? This is fundamental in soccer. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tie/542989/134 "2010-06-28T15:25:55Z")
Of course, comparing the strategy of American Football to soccer is like comparing the strategies of basketball to baseball. They both play with a ball, start with the letters B-A-S, and are very popular in the US; yet they are wildly different sports. If you want to compare sports in terms of strategy, it should be related sports; and Soccer is closer related to Basketball (and Handball) than to American Football, despite the name. This group has teams where each individual player has to act fast to cover the opponent, try to outdribble him, and either pass or score, which means being able to look at the whole situation. And the no-contact rule means that stealing the ball from the opponent requires skill. American Football, belongs in a class with rugby, which with it’s closely related. If you want to group the big spectator sports, baseball\* would fit much closer there than with the others. Both have periods of nothing happening, and strategy means fixed plays, so the individual player doesn’t have to make a decision in a split-second, but rather, all players follow the rehearsed play. This is simply different from soccer. Comparing one to the other and declaring one better in terms of strategy or more exciting to watch is like comparing apples to ananas. \*And baseball can end with a tie, too, can it not? After all, after three outs from one time, the sides changes - there is no requirement that the first time has scored even one point, right? So both sides can score 0 in all 9 innings, theoretically. Or 2:2 or similar, that the end result is even. What happens then? How is a tied baseball game decided? ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tie/542989/135 "2010-06-28T15:37:51Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > This is absolutely false. > > Ask yourself if women could play professionally against men. What has that got to do with anything? That women and men’s leagues are seperate has mostly historical reasons. Every world cup, the Asian teams - Koreans, Japanese - are from half a foot to a foot shorter than the Scandinavians (Vikings), and apart from a few tricky head shots - where both players jump up and try to catch the ball first - it doesn’t make as much difference as the skill of the players and how good they integrate as team. > [@](#): > > Even if it was all about skill, I don’t have a clue why people seem to think that anybody can be as skilled as Ronaldo with practice. Why is being faster than average pure genetics, but being more agile or having better coordination not genetic? Just because practice improves your skill, doesn’t mean genetics isn’t part of it. You get stronger by lifting weights too. Nobody is saying that anybody can be a Ronaldo or Maradona or Pele; obviously they are specially talented players. But you don’t have to have a certain build to become a good soccer player. If you haven’t noticed the wide range in height and build (slender and broad-chested), then you haven’t watched a lot of soccer. > [@](#): > > Not that this addresses the strategy of soccer. Well… indirectly, it matters. Soccer is a game that depends both on the skill of the individual player and on the way that the eleven players integrate themselves seamlessly into a team. If you see a very good team playing, they seem to know without looking where their teammates are (look at how Rowling describes the top Quidditch team playing in Goblet of Fire - she was influenced by soccer, obviously). Thus you need players who spend years developing their own skills at dribbling, fall-back, curved shots, head-shots, etc., and a team that spend time to grow together as a team. The latter point is often the problem with the national teams as well as the Premier Leagues: the national teams have only a couple of months when they pull the players from all over the place and train them together; and in the clubs, players are often traded very quickly, and managers are changed at an astonishing rate. Honestly, I really doubt that anbyody who hasn’t watched a certain amount of soccer, who understands all the rules - including the offside rule - and has discussed strategy with some experts, or listened to some experts, is in the position to judge soccer. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tie/542989/136 "2010-06-28T16:53:24Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > American Football, belongs in a class with rugby, which with it’s closely related. It’s not that closely related. They are superficially quite similar, but there are two factors which render them almost totally unrelated- the forward pass ban in rugby, and the eligible receiver rule, and the separate offenses and defenses in American football. Of course, they are similar in that there is much more physical contact in both than in other ball sports, and that roughly half the players on each team are essentially supposed to be physically optimized for pushing the other team. And the shape of the ball. Still, they’re no more similar than rugby and basketball. > [@](#): > > How is a tied baseball game decided? Play continues until somebody wins in the US. In Japan, games can be drawn (except in knockout sequences, obviously). I don’t know about the rest of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tie/542989/137 "2010-06-29T01:23:30Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > What has that got to do with anything? That women and men’s leagues are seperate has mostly historical reasons. …No. If women could help a professional men’s team win, they’d be on it. What it has to do with something is that it proves being a good athlete is a gigantic part of soccer. > [@](#): > > Every world cup, the Asian teams - Koreans, Japanese - are from half a foot to a foot shorter than the Scandinavians (Vikings), and apart from a few tricky head shots - where both players jump up and try to catch the ball first - it doesn’t make as much difference as the skill of the players and how good they integrate as team. You’re again missing the point. You have an extremely narrow view of what being athletic means. People with great ball control are ever bit the genetic freaks that tall and fast and strong people are. That’s the point. > [@](#): > > Nobody is saying that anybody can be a Ronaldo or Maradona or Pele; obviously they are specially talented players. But you don’t have to have a certain build to become a good soccer player. If you haven’t noticed the wide range in height and build (slender and broad-chested), then you haven’t watched a lot of soccer. Fantastic athletes can come in different sizes? Shocker. Again, you’re missing the point. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tie/542989/138 "2010-06-29T15:41:14Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > f you see a football player, they all have the same physique. If you see a soccer player, they all have the same physique. Give it up. You have disqualified yourself from ever discussing association football ever again. I mean - you seriously mean that? Idiot or troll? Straight choice. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tie/542989/139 "2010-06-29T16:07:45Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Fantastic athletes can come in different sizes? Shocker. Again, you’re missing the point. No you’re missing the point. While\*\*\* anybody\*\*\* playing at the professional level is probably a bit genetically gifted, there is no size or strength prerequisite to play soccer. You don’t have be massively strong, tall, or olympically fast. It is a game which rewards all around conditioning; which is a result of effort combined with good genes rather than the other way around where you must have the genes to even participate. That was the point about the Japanese playing against the Scandinavians and the field being basically equal. You couldn’t field a team in the same manner in American football. The smaller team would always get steamrolled regardless of their strategy or passing game. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tie/542989/140 "2010-06-29T16:16:25Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > If you see a football player, they all have the same physique. If you see a soccer player, they all have the same physique. You simply don’t get to the pros unless you have or develop the body that is ideal for the game. A) Peter Crouch [peter crouch - Google Search](http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&source=imghp&q=peter+crouch&gbv=2&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=) B) Lionel Messi [lionel messi - Google Search](http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&gbv=2&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=lionel+messi&aq=0&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=LIONEL+MESS&gs_rfai=) C) Didier Drogba [DROGBA - Google Search](http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&gbv=2&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=DROGBA&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=) You’re right. I can’t tell them apart… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tie/542989.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tie/542989.md?page=8)