A Tocquevillean Challenge

The second point that I would like to mention is that I have read a lot of posts stating that classical democracy is nothing but ‘Mob Rule’, and that it is unstable, irrational, and dangerous to minority groups. This idea derives from Plato and is absolutely WRONG.

Remember, Plato’s mentor, Socrates, was profoundly authoritarian: the real reason he was executed was almost certainly because he provided ideological justification to the aristocratic faction that seized power for a time before being expelled. Plato’s best-known student, Aristotle, was tutor to Alexander ‘the Great’. Plato hated the idea of democracy and did everthing he could to blacken it name to history. Unfortunately, at the time that the US Constitution was being drafted, there was little evidence yet known to counter his allegations.

We now have a copy of the Constitution of Athens, as well as a lot of other information, and can see that in fact Athenian democracy WAS stable - it lasted for centuries in a very dangerous neighborhood, with the only serious internal dangers being the aristocrats themselves.

The main difference in my eyes is that almost all magistracies were selected by lot. The Athenians regarded elections as ANTI-democratic, because in any significant election, big money and party politics became important, which reduced the importance of the ‘small guy’.

Just ask yourself this: if the general populace is so unable to run their own government, why do we have juries, where someone’s LIFE can be on the line? If ordinary people can make decisions in one situation, why not in the other? Or do you prefer people who put themselves forward, and who are willing to jump through hoops to get elected and gain the spotlight?

Bill

2Sense–

I think that your read on the “oligarchy = higher average intelligence of those in positions of power” statement is uncharitable.

I don’t think that anyone here would posit that education equals higher value as a person.

It boils down to this (for me anyway): who do you want watching over your economy, Alan Greenspan or your “average guy”. The same question could be rephrased to cover any of the “institutions” implied in the OP.

Do you honestly not understand the difference between this(socialism) and a planned economy(what your various examples demonstrated)?

Gadarene: “not always seeing, for example, that eroding your consumer base in a quest for greater profit margins now–like when you throw thousands out of work to move your factories overseas–might just come back and bite ya later.

Or, for example, short-term thought like saying that American workers should never be laid off, no matter what the competitive landscape looks like, potentially making the business go bust because it couldn’t maintain the profit margins of its competitors… Your logic only works if the workers getting laid off are the only consumers which a company sells to. With lower priced products, all consumers benefit, which in general grows the economy, which in general opens up new companies, which can hire the displaced workers… Personally, I have no love for american workers who do an equivalent job to their foreign counterparts but demand more pay. The labor market is the same as any other market, and if they charge too much for their product (labor), the companies will look elsewhere. Nobody balks at paying american workers big bucks when they do a better job than anyone else, only when they are not worth the price premium that they charge.

In any event, you have not demonstrated that your worker-retention policy has long-term benefits (which is required in order for you to prove your thesis that denial of this policy is wrong-headed and driven by plutocrats and oligarchs). Given the current economic situation (e.g. very low unemployment and low inflation), I find your hypothesis hard to swallow.

the machete taken to the capital gains tax. corporate tax loopholes and shelters. reduction of estate tax. a progressive income tax that really ain’t all that progressive.

There are far less shelters and loopholes today than there used to be (Bill Bradley, no right-winger, supported some of Reagan’s tax policies for exactly that reason – he lowered the rates but cut the loopholes). And, no matter how you slice it, the tax structure is progressive. It may not be as progressive as you would like, but it is progressive. In order for your hypothesis to hold up, we’d need a regressive tax structure.

People, when polled, are overwhelmingly in favor of some kind of campaign finance reform. Which means that some politicians will make some pretty speeches (either about the sanctity of the system, or about the sanctity of free speech), and then nothing will get done.

You misunderstand the “intensity of support”. If you ask the question “do you support campaign finance reform”, you will probably get the answer “yes”. If you ask the question “do you want campaign finance reform more than a prescription drug benefit for medicare”, you’ll probably get the answer “no”. Support for campaign finance reform (and flag-burning amendments) is wide but shallow. Support for campaign finance abuses and protecting the first amendment is narrow but deep. Politicians give the “masses” what they want in general, and also appeal to narrower groups (such as corporate donors or civil-libertarians) at the same time.

I believe that polls are flawed, and over-reliance on polls (as you pointed out) as dangerous as ignoring public opinion altogether. (Exhibits A and B: Bill Clinton; Newt Gingrich.)

That begs the question: “which policies of Bill Clinton (which were motivated by polls) have resulted in programs which are unpopular with the american people?” Please note that the health care debacle doesn’t count, since that was an appeal to liberal ideology rather than the polls (proven by the fact that it was wildly unpopular and elected a republican congress).

I just don’t think public policy … are as coincidant with the will of the people as you say.

Then it should be very easy for you to provide concrete examples. If you have poll numbers to back them up, even better.

In response to the question regarding average intelligence among the oligarchy vs. the average individual:

Intelligence: Having or showing mental keenness. Implies the ability to cope with demands arising from novel situations and new problems and to use the power of reasoning and inference effectively. Quickness or ease in learning.

I think its reasonable to assume that, generally speaking, human intelligence is dispersed along a bell curve. Some people are extremely smart, some people are extremely stupid and most people fall somewhere in between. Twin studies (meaning studies of identical twins who were separated at birth and subsequently raised in different environments) indicate that a great deal of a person’s intelligence is genetic. Some might then assume that based on this that the dispersion of intelligence would be similar among different socioeconomic classes (i.e. that if x% of people who are upper class are very intelligent then approximately the same percentage of people in the lower class would also be very intelligent). However, this thinking does not take into account a couple of things, namely:

  1. People of a higher socioeconomic status are much more likely to be better educated. I realize that education in and of itself does not make a person more intelligent. It makes them more knowledgeable. However, the statement “use it or lose it” holds true with the mind as well as it does with other abilities. Those who are better educated are more likely to have “exercised” their minds. The end result of education is a person who not only has greater knowledge but also one who learns more quickly. Therefore, greater intelligence.

  2. I believe that people who are more intelligent will tend to perform better financially then people who aren’t as intelligent. If this is true then people who are in possession of greater mental prowess will be more likely to move from lower to middle class, or from middle to upper class then will people of lesser mental ability. This would create a class of people who are, on average, of higher intelligence then those in the lower classes.

Finally, regarding elitism:

e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism
n.

  1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
  2. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
  3. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class

I don’t think SingleDad is attempting to say that he deserves favored treatment because of perceived superiority, nor do I think he feels that the oligarchy is “entitled” to such enjoyment (definitions 1 and 2 respectively). However, definition 3 is probably more or less correct. The people who constitute the oligarchy are indeed probably more intelligent in general then your average citizen. In that sense, according to definition 3, yes it is elitist.

To quote Libertarian:

There is a distinction between intelligent and wise. Intelligence merely denotes mental quickness and ability to learn new things. Wisdom, however, would be the usage of shrewd and prudent decision making towards a correct end. I’m sure some of the leaders of the above mentioned countries are/were very intelligent but perhaps not particularly wise.

Grim Beaker

Gadarene:

An interesting topic. Thanx.
As I said, I agree with your OP.

I hope you don’t mind if I dance around the edges of the OP, while I respond to statements I don’t agree with.
If it bothers you, just yell.
______________________Salaam.

Just putting my 2sense in.

Tyranny, like Hell, is not easily conquered.

-Thomas Paine (fugitive slave catcher)

The labor market is notthe same as any other.
It is not selling things, but people.
Layoffs help the few, but hurt the many.
Sometimes companies can not avoid this. But sometimes they can.
Have you ever been to Flint?

I am sad that you don’t have any love for your fellow American worker. :frowning:


Just putting my 2sense in.

Tyranny, like Hell, is not easily conquered.
-Thomas Paine (fugitive slave catcher)

<shrugs> I’ll admit to the charge of elitism. Having been a member of a condominium community, I have an aversion to “pure” democracy; I have new insight to the wisdom of the founders to keep both the power of the government and the power of the people in check.

Given that I am defining the oligarchy as those who hold effective power, this group is in many ways self-selecting. Intelligent, motivated people will find ways to obtain and wield power. We let them wield power because of their intelligence and their specialized knowlege and experience.

The people en masse exert power over the oligarchy through the vote, the consumer dollar, and through the threat of riot and revolt.

One effect of the incredible high-tech stock valuation is that we are in effect electing new members of the oligarchy.


No matter where you go, there you are.

nU Vo dA da:

“planned economy”?? That’s a new one…

Who’s planning it?

::

2sense: “The labor market is not the same as any other. It is not selling things, but people.

No, it’s a service. If you charge too much for a service, I will buy it from someone else who will charge less. If the service you offer is automobile assembly, but someone else can do the same job but asks for less money, why would I choose your service over his? Because you are american and he isn’t? Sorry, but that doesn’t wash. If you want to earn more than your competitors, offer a better service, or optimally a service that nobody else in the world can offer. If the service in question were dry cleaning, would you be all bent out of shape if I decided to ship my garments to another town where the service was much cheaper? Why is auto assembly more special than dry cleaning?

Have you ever been to Flint?

No.

I am sad that you don’t have any love for your fellow American worker.

I didn’t say all workers, merely those who whine and complain because foreign workers can do the exact same job that they can for less money. Having a job is not a right, and people should have no expectation that their employers will continue to pay them if they are not making money for their employers. Businesses are in business to make money, they aren’t charities.

Thank you for answering my question CaliphBoomer, I’ll take that as a “no”.

SingleDad and Gadarene:

I am sorry if my post was confusing.

I was not saying that you 2 are elitists.
I was pointing out that the position that you were taking was.

Everyone has misconceptions about the world.
That’s OK.
As long as they aren’t too unwilling to discard one when they notice it.

I think the 2 of you are very intelligent.
Of course, I tend to agree with you.


Just putting my 2sense in.

Tyranny, like Hell, is not easily conquered.
-Thomas Paine (fugitive slave catcher)

Nouveau DE Da:

And now, I eagerly await the enlightenment
to be derived from your definition/explanation of a ‘planned economy.’

Be prepared to explain how it differs from a progressive move toward socialism.

::

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Erratum:

I think we might have a point of view difference.
I am looking at these issues from a POV of the laborers.

To answer your points.

  1. The labor market is selling services.
    Yes. But labor is different from services which don’t involve man-hours.
    What the worker is selling is his/her time. His/Her expertice is reflected by the price.

As to the dry cleaner vs auto assembler.
I hope you can see the difference between selling 3 hours of yourself to someone a month, and selling 2000 hours a month.
From the POV of the laborer, one would rather lose the former.

  1. Never been to Flint.
    Luckily you don’t have to visit the cesspit to comprehend my point. You could just rent Michael Moore’s film,* Roger and Me*.

3.Whiny American workers.
Hey, I’d like to see some foreign workers whine once in a while. Maybe they don’t because the countries that allow this exploition of their citizens are weak on human rights.

I believe only people should have rights.
A business has no right to exist. It exists only because the people allow it to.
THAT is why Businesses are in business.
(refraining from Honest Abe quote here.)

For pets or for MEAT?


Just putting my 2sense in.

Tyranny, like Hell, is not easily conquered.
-Thomas Paine (fugitive slave catcher)

Oops, forgot to delete the quote part.

Hey everybody, I am not quoting Erratum.
I am paraphrasing his points.(to suit my answers of course)

_______________________PEACE

The labor market has some unique features. Yes, they are selling a service, and thus have to maintain a level of competitiveness.

However, it is also true that the laborer is at a significant disadvantage in a pure laissez faire economy. His job is liquid; he can be replaced very quickly. However his livelihood is not; it is difficult to find another job quickly. Unions, strikes and working-condition contracts, and labor laws operate to correct this imbalance.

When we allow foreign labor to compete with ours, we are asking our workers to compete with people with a vastly lower standard of living than ours. Sooner or later, the foreign countries will rise up to our standard of living, but I think it’s only fair that we don’t allow our own labor market to crash; such an action would have tragic human consequence. Of course, you may be a cold-hearted bastard and care nothing for other people if they don’t measure up to your standard of productivity.

I don’t think that we would long endure an economy where a privileged few held all the economic assets and the mass of people were relegated to peasantry or serfdom.


No matter where you go, there you are.

Single(das kapital)Dad sez:

Not for a skilled professional (like myself)in a high tech market. (like Orange County)

and:

“From each according to his ability; to each according to his need.” Karl Marx

and:

italics added for clarification

You are correct. The Soviet Union only lasted 70 years. Hallelujah, Single Dad, we agree!!

:stuck_out_tongue:

planned economy. Hmm i thought that word only had a place in Alpha centauri. Mmm id go with democracy and planned economy, and knowledge and cybernetic :slight_smile:

I’ll take your assertion on faith. Nor I. But I’m not entirely selfish. I realize that I am privileged by accidents of genetics and talent.

The fallacy of the excluded middle. Damn! I love doing this to you! :smiley:

<deadpan> Perhaps I should re-think my position…


No matter where you go, there you are.

SingleDad: “Of course, you may be a xcold-hearted bastard and ycare nothing for other people if zthey don’t measure up to your standard of productivity.”

Is x+y conditional on z?
or
if z did not exist, would x+y remain constant?

in other words…
is z a prerequisite for x+y? or does x+y exist irrespective of z? Or, if z were reversed, would x+y change? If so, how?

Or, maybe y is an integral component of x, without which x would not be itself. Or maybe y is an inevitable consequence of x.

No.

x=z
y=z
x+y=z
z/y=?
?
?
?

If I keep this up, I’ll be as looney as you.

Here’s the answer to the alleged excluded middle:

  1. Based on my impartial observation of your thought processes, you consider the cold hearted bastard’s lack of caring an inequity-(whether or not it is an inequity has not been sufficiently demonstrated, however.)

  2. Your view is that ‘inequities’ require intervention, the purpose of which is to create equanimity.(I’m not arguing this should not be done, I disagree with your method and solution.)

3)Your solution (again, based on my impartial observation of your mindset and world view) would be to take from the cold hearted bastards-by force if necessary-and give to those who are not measuring up. I would submit that this method inevitably not only prolongs, but increases the inequity. The weak get weaker and the strong must produce more to give to the weak and yet stay at the same level themselves.

Rather than further weaken the already weak and make them even more dependent, how about finding a way to make them stronger and less dependent?

: