# A twofer hypothetical about infidelity, pregnancy, and (un)reasonable demands. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 10, 2010, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682 "2010-10-10T14:20:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/21 "2010-10-10T16:36:03Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > > [@jsgoddess](#): > > > > I agree. “I can’t do this” when there’s an option other than “this” _is_ an ultimatum. > > But the world “ultimatum” implies some big dramatic manipulative scene. People are saying “The faithful partner shouldn’t give an ultimatum, they should just stay or go”, but the only way they could do that is if they totally kept their thought process secret from their partner–if their partner knows their thinking, they’ve made an ultimatum. And it’s not reasonable to expect the faithful partner to figure this out in a vacuum. They are going to need to talk it out–and that will probably be with their partner. The faithful partner needs to simply assume that their partner abandoning a child for them is not an option, period. It would be unconscionable even to suggest it. There is nothing to talk about in that regard. Only the choice to leave or stay. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/22 "2010-10-10T16:36:56Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > > [@jsgoddess](#): > > > > I agree. “I can’t do this” when there’s an option other than “this” _is_ an ultimatum. > > But the world “ultimatum” implies some big dramatic manipulative scene. People are saying “The faithful partner shouldn’t give an ultimatum, they should just stay or go”, but the only way they could do that is if they totally kept their thought process secret from their partner–if their partner knows their thinking, they’ve made an ultimatum. And it’s not reasonable to expect the faithful partner to figure this out in a vacuum. They are going to need to talk it out–and that will probably be with their partner. I’m not sure why you started with “but” when I was agreeing with you. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/23 "2010-10-10T16:38:31Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@MandaJo](#): > > > > But the world “ultimatum” implies some big dramatic manipulative scene. People are saying “The faithful partner shouldn’t give an ultimatum, they should just stay or go”, but the only way they could do that is if they totally kept their thought process secret from their partner–if their partner knows their thinking, they’ve made an ultimatum. And it’s not reasonable to expect the faithful partner to figure this out in a vacuum. They are going to need to talk it out–and that will probably be with their partner. > > The faithful partner needs to simply assume that their partner abandoning a child for them is not an option, period. It would be unconscionable even to suggest it. There is nothing to talk about in that regard. Only the choice to leave or stay. For some people, it would be an option and not unconscionable to suggest it at all. And the only choice being to leave or stay would _function as an ultimatum_ if there is any communication between the partners at all. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/24 "2010-10-10T16:40:42Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Teddy and Alice’s situation is a bit different, because that obligation doesn’t exist quite yet. That’s for Alice to decide. The obligation exists as soon as Alice decides that it exists. Demanding that a woman give up her own child for adoption or else is not exactly a loving or caring thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/25 "2010-10-10T16:41:36Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > > [@MandaJo](#): > > > > But the world “ultimatum” implies some big dramatic manipulative scene. People are saying “The faithful partner shouldn’t give an ultimatum, they should just stay or go”, but the only way they could do that is if they totally kept their thought process secret from their partner–if their partner knows their thinking, they’ve made an ultimatum. And it’s not reasonable to expect the faithful partner to figure this out in a vacuum. They are going to need to talk it out–and that will probably be with their partner. > > I’m not sure why you started with “but” when I was agreeing with you. I was clarifying that I didn’t think a big dramatic ultimatum was a good or acceptable thing, but in practical terms it would probably work out that way. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/26 "2010-10-10T16:46:40Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > The faithful partner needs to simply assume that their partner abandoning a child for them is not an option, period. It would be unconscionable even to suggest it. There is nothing to talk about in that regard. Only the choice to leave or stay. > > For some people, it would be an option and not unconscionable to suggest it at all. What people would this be? Who thinks it’s just dandy to be asked to abandon their child? > [@](#): > > And the only choice being to leave or stay would _function as an ultimatum_ if there is any communication between the partners at all. There’s nothing to talk about. Asking somebody to throw their kid away for you is not an ethical option. The only ethical thing to do is accept that the partner is going to be a parent to this child and make plans accordingly. The faithful partners have a right to make any decision they want for themselves, but they do not have any business even _suggesting_ that anyone else cater their lives to them to such an extreme. The kid is a greater obligation to their partner than they are. They need to be adult enough to accept that or move on. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/27 "2010-10-10T16:55:25Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > > [@jsgoddess](#): > > > > I’m not sure why you started with “but” when I was agreeing with you. > > I was clarifying that I didn’t think a big dramatic ultimatum was a good or acceptable thing, but in practical terms it would probably work out that way. And it would probably end in separation anyway. Even if the cuckolded partner is successful in persuading the cheater to abandon a child the partner wanted to keep, that doesn’t mean the other partner is just going to forget all about and everything will be hunky-dory. That’s emotionally wrenching thing to expect somebody to do, and if it’s done unwillingly, it’s going to result in constant second guessing and guilt, and simmering resentment. It’s an emotionally alienating thing to ask a partner to do, not a loving or unifying thing and the relationship would be unlikely to sustain itself anyway. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/28 "2010-10-10T17:02:17Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@jsgoddess](#): > > > > For some people, it would be an option and not unconscionable to suggest it at all. > > What people would this be? Who thinks it’s just dandy to be asked to abandon their child? Someone who would rather have their partner than a child. This is my last response to you in this thread, just fyi. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/29 "2010-10-10T17:05:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@jsgoddess](#): > > > > For some people, it would be an option and not unconscionable to suggest it at all. > > What people would this be? Who thinks it’s just dandy to be asked to abandon their child? > > > [@](#): > > > > And the only choice being to leave or stay would _function as an ultimatum_ if there is any communication between the partners at all. > > There’s nothing to talk about. Asking somebody to throw their kid away for you is not an ethical option. The only ethical thing to do is accept that the partner is going to be a parent to this child and make plans accordingly. The faithful partners have a right to make any decision they want for themselves, but they do not have any business even _suggesting_ that anyone else cater their lives to them to such an extreme. The kid is a greater obligation to their partner than they are. They need to be adult enough to accept that or move on. **Dio** , are there any circumstances under which you are okay with Bob not being a part of his child’s life? What if, for instance, the woman he cheated with is okay with it for her own reasons? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/30 "2010-10-10T17:06:06Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > > [@jsgoddess](#): > > > > I’m not sure why you started with “but” when I was agreeing with you. > > I was clarifying that I didn’t think a big dramatic ultimatum was a good or acceptable thing, but in practical terms it would probably work out that way. Gotcha. I agree with what you’re saying. I’m just going to follow you around now and hold up a “me too” sign. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/31 "2010-10-10T17:09:10Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > What people would this be? Who thinks it’s just dandy to be asked to abandon their child? > > Someone who would rather have their partner than a child. Who thinks it’s OK to be forced to have to decide? > [@](#): > > This is my last response to you in this thread, just fyi. Why? Can’t you defend your own position? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/32 "2010-10-10T17:11:40Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > What people would this be? Who thinks it’s just dandy to be asked to abandon their child? > > > > There’s nothing to talk about. Asking somebody to throw their kid away for you is not an ethical option. The only ethical thing to do is accept that the partner is going to be a parent to this child and make plans accordingly. The faithful partners have a right to make any decision they want for themselves, but they do not have any business even _suggesting_ that anyone else cater their lives to them to such an extreme. The kid is a greater obligation to their partner than they are. They need to be adult enough to accept that or move on. > > **Dio** , are there any circumstances under which you are okay with Bob not being a part of his child’s life? No. Well, unless he’s abusive or something. > [@](#): > > What if, for instance, the woman he cheated with is okay with it for her own reasons? What she wants is irrelevant. His obligation is to the child, not to the woman. The woman has nothing to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/33 "2010-10-10T17:15:43Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > **Dio** , are there any circumstances under which you are okay with Bob not being a part of his child’s life? > > No. Well, unless he’s abusive or something. > > > [@](#): > > > > What if, for instance, the woman he cheated with is okay with it for her own reasons? > > What she wants is irrelevant. His obligation is to the child, not to the woman. The woman has nothing to do with it. So do you consider all adoption immoral? If someone is 14, single, poor and gives their child to a happy, affluent couple who have been vetted by the adoption agency and the state as suitable parents–that’s immoral? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/34 "2010-10-10T17:20:51Z")
Adoption was not part of the specific scenario I was asked about. This was a scenario where a father was being asked to remain the legal father yet never have any contact with the kid. If he is no longer the legal father, then he no longer has any obligation. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/35 "2010-10-10T17:28:33Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > So do you consider all adoption immoral? If someone is 14, single, poor and gives their child to a happy, affluent couple who have been vetted by the adoption agency and the state as suitable parents–that’s immoral? I’m not often on Dio’s side when it comes to the sex and relationship threads, but in this case, I am. If a 14-year-old mother and her family do not want to keep the kid, and the (presumably) 14-year-old father and his family _do_, then the father’s rights trump the desire of the mother to put the child up for adoption. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/36 "2010-10-10T17:29:08Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > **Dio** , are there any circumstances under which you are okay with Bob not being a part of his child’s life? > > No. Well, unless he’s abusive or something. > > > [@](#): > > > > What if, for instance, the woman he cheated with is okay with it for her own reasons? > > What she wants is irrelevant. His obligation is to the child, not to the woman. The woman has nothing to do with it. Why do you elevate the child’s interests above all others? If BOTH Alice and the lover want Bob to have nothing to do with the child, he should [del]ignore both their wishes[/del] elevate his judgment above both of theirs? I can think of at least four reasons why the lover might not want Bob around. She could be married herself and trying to repair her own relationship with a partner who is willing to help her raise the child but who doesn’t want Bob around. She may not have known that Bob was married when they made the beast with two backs, and upon learning the truth have judged his one act to be make him inappropriate material. She may be of a different race or religion than Bob and, though she was willing to have a one-nighter with him, be unwilling to see him on a regular basis. She may feel entirely competent to raise a child on her own and, feeling guilty for abetting Bob’s infidelity, not wish to be a homewrecker when there is no need for it. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/37 "2010-10-10T17:33:06Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > Carol isn’t requesting that Bob _abandon_ his child. Abandonment implies a pre-existing relationship, and as the child does not yet exist it is impossible to have a relationship with it. Carol is requesting that Bob never _establish_ a relationship, which is not quite the same thing. > > It’s EXACTLY the same thing. I wouldn’t be willing to not have a relationship with a child I had fathered. That said, how do you figure never having a relationship is the same as abandonment? ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/38 "2010-10-10T17:34:38Z")
Regarding the OP: I’ve been cheated on, and tried to make it work. If my ex managed to get knocked up in the course of the infidelity, it would never even cross my mind to request that she somehow get rid of the child. I’d probably leave, frankly. There are certain reasonable conditions that a betrayed partner can place on the unfaithful one for purposes of reassurance and building trust, but asking that they abandon a child that they want to be involved with for the sake of their peace of mind reeks of punishment and emotional blackmail. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/39 "2010-10-10T17:36:42Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I can think of at least four reasons why the lover might not want Bob around. She could be married herself and trying to repair her own relationship with a partner who is willing to help her raise the child but who doesn’t want Bob around. She may not have known that Bob was married when they made the beast with two backs, and upon learning the truth have judged his one act to be make him inappropriate material. She may be of a different race or religion than Bob and, though she was willing to have a one-nighter with him, be unwilling to see him on a regular basis. She may feel entirely competent to raise a child on her own and, feeling guilty for abetting Bob’s infidelity, not wish to be a homewrecker when there is no need for it. Too bad for her. Bob’s parental rights and obligations trump her feelings on the matter, subject to whatever custody and/or support arrangement they come to. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/40 "2010-10-10T17:38:21Z")
> [@black\_rabbit](#): > > > [@MandaJo](#): > > > > So do you consider all adoption immoral? If someone is 14, single, poor and gives their child to a happy, affluent couple who have been vetted by the adoption agency and the state as suitable parents–that’s immoral? > > I’m not often on Dio’s side when it comes to the sex and relationship threads, but in this case, I am. > > If a 14-year-old mother and her family do not want to keep the kid, and the (presumably) 14-year-old father and his family _do_, then the father’s rights trump the desire of the mother to put the child up for adoption. That’s not at all what I was saying. Dio seemed to be arguing that a parent had absolute responsibilities towards his/her child under any and all circumstances, and I think adoption by a capable and loving family is a legitimate way to discharge those responsibilities. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682.md?page=3)