# A twofer hypothetical about infidelity, pregnancy, and (un)reasonable demands. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 10, 2010, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682 "2010-10-10T14:20:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/81 "2010-10-11T21:24:32Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > … The only choice is whether the Cuckolded partner wants to be with a person who is a parent. If they want to be with a cheater, then they need to accept the reality of what that means and be with the whole person. That person is now a parent… I think this sums up my take on the matter. Teddy’s partner (sorry, I’m getting the ladynames mixed up) is not yet a parent. Bob, however, is a parent. His wife cannot just wave that away. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/82 "2010-10-11T21:28:48Z")
> [@Otara](#): > > > [@Lemur866](#): > > > > Yeah, having an affair is unethical, and abandoning a child is unethical. Just like punching someone in the face is unethical, and shooting someone in the face is unethical. > > > > Adultery isn’t in the same league of scumbaggery as abandoning a child. > > You are arguing for a categorical difference where none really exists. There is no ‘scumbaggery cutoff point’ where you’re not allowed to be in a relationship with someone, its a subjective one that each of us will decide at different levels. Nobody is saying she has to stay. I think she should leave. What she doesn’t have any moral right to do is ask him to abandon his own child. > [@](#): > > Edit: So if instead Bob comes to Carol and says ‘Ive disowned the child, you didnt ask me to do it, I just decided it would make it easier’ - does Carol still _have_ to leave? > > Otara She doesn’t HAVE to do anything, but if she stays, she’ll be staying with someone who is an unbelievable scumbag orders of magnitude worse than just being a cheater. If that doesn’t bother her, then she’s just as bad as he is. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/83 "2010-10-11T21:37:33Z")
> [@Otara](#): > > Edit: So if instead Bob comes to Carol and says ‘Ive disowned the child, you didnt ask me to do it, I just decided it would make it easier’ - does Carol still _have_ to leave? > > Otara Of course she doesn’t HAVE to leave just because he disowned Hansel and Gretel. People stay with scumbags all the time, plenty of women have stayed married to murderers and rapists. It’s her life, and if she wants to stay married to a scumbag then she doesn’t need my permission. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/84 "2010-10-11T23:02:59Z")
NM ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/85 "2010-10-11T23:27:37Z")
I guess Im trying to think it through. Ie Person A has had an affair and taken responsibility but a child is in the picture. Person B has had an affair and disowned their child. Is it unethical to prefer person B as a partner because it will mean a child isnt in the picture, even though you had no part in causing it? Myself I could understand thinking Person B is ‘worse’ than the other as a person, but still preferring the overall situation. The feedback Im reading is that other people couldnt or seem to think it would be immoral to prefer that from a personal perspective, because it implies some kind of approval for Person B’s actions over Person A’s. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/86 "2010-10-11T23:30:51Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > I think this sums up my take on the matter. Teddy’s partner (sorry, I’m getting the ladynames mixed up) is not yet a parent. [Dyan Cannon died in vain. ☹](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064100/) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/87 "2010-10-11T23:45:14Z")
> [@Otara](#): > > I guess Im trying to think it through. > > Ie > Person A has had an affair and taken responsibility but a child is in the picture. > Person B has had an affair and disowned their child. > > Is it unethical to prefer person B as a partner because it will mean a child isnt in the picture, even though you had no part in causing it? Yes, and it’s disingenuous to say they had no part in causing it. > [@](#): > > The feedback Im reading is that other people couldnt or seem to think it would be immoral to prefer that from a personal perspective, because it implies some kind of approval for Person B’s actions over Person A’s. Not just approval, but being the impetus for it (not that approving of somebody abandoning their child isn’t bad enough). ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/88 "2010-10-12T00:00:52Z")
You have slipped into my computer and are reading my book. I love it; all these opinions. All this conflict. Is this your book? You’d better use a different title, or I’ll sue you! (But no worries, I think I’m probably way ahead of you.) PS in my book there is only one baby, the illegitimate offspring of “bob” and “Alice,” and “Teddy” and “Carol” also have their moment of conflict…and then they really hit it off. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/89 "2010-10-12T00:09:19Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > You have slipped into my computer and are reading my book. I love it; all these opinions. All this conflict. > > Is this your book? You’d better use a different title, or I’ll sue you! (But no worries, I think I’m probably way ahead of you.) > > PS in my book there is only one baby, the illegitimate offspring of “bob” and “Alice,” and “Teddy” and “Carol” also have their moment of conflict…and then they really hit it off. Y’all know I’ve pretty much given up creative writing, no? For profit I mean. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/90 "2010-10-12T00:26:36Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Y’all know I’ve pretty much given up creative writing, no? For profit I mean. So you satisfy your creative-writing itch by making up scenarios and posting them here? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/91 "2010-10-12T00:29:31Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > Y’all know I’ve pretty much given up creative writing, no? For profit I mean. > > So you satisfy your creative-writing itch by making up scenarios and posting them here? 😃 Impudent wench! Behave yourself or I will post my 15-sonnet sequence, consisiting of fourteen sonnets each of whose first lines is a line in the fifteenth. You have been warned. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/92 "2010-10-12T00:40:45Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@dangermom](#): > > > > So you satisfy your creative-writing itch by making up scenarios and posting them here? 😃 > > Impudent wench! Behave yourself or I will post my 15-sonnet sequence, consisiting of fourteen sonnets each of whose first lines is a line in the fifteenth. > > You have been warned. Do it. I wanna see. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/93 "2010-10-12T00:50:40Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > Impudent wench! Behave yourself or I will post my 15-sonnet sequence, consisiting of fourteen sonnets each of whose first lines is a line in the fifteenth. > > > > You have been warned. > > Do it. I wanna see. No one is that mad. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/94 "2010-10-12T02:25:06Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@dangermom](#): > > > > Do it. I wanna see. > > No one is that mad. Oh yeah? ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/95 "2010-10-12T02:48:28Z")
The needs of the child outweigh the neediness of the adults. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/96 "2010-10-12T05:56:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What people would this be? Who thinks it’s just dandy to be asked to abandon their child? Because not everyone likes children that much I picked both options where the wronged party gets to demand something of the other party. They are the ones wronged, and the wrong was perpetrated by the their partner. They are in the right to demand something. It is the cheating partner’s fault and responsibility to keep the relationship alive if the non-cheating partner wants it The child doesn’t figure into it at all. In the first case, never having a father isn’t the same as having one that abandons you. For all we know, the other woman has a husband/boyfriend/support that can take care of the kid. Besides, a child being raised in slightly less than optimal conditions is hardly a crime or some huge moral failing. I’d rather an American child go without a father than subject any child to poverty in Ethiopia or something. Enough people grow up without fathers that it’s really not that big of a deal. Maybe one day he can even be president 😉 In the second case, if the choice to stay together means no child, either through abortion or adoption, then there is no problem. The child’s never in their lives to begin with. The OP said that after counseling, they decided to stay together. In that case, it is up to Alice to deal with her feelings. Teddy isn’t wrong at all to ask her to get rid of the kid. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/97 "2010-10-12T06:24:37Z")
The child has wronged nobody and the partner has no right to make any demands on the child at all. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/98 "2010-10-12T14:14:19Z")
Carol is making unreasonable demands. You can’t tell a father never to see his son. The other one, Alice? I can’t remember her name? Has a stronger case, because she will now be expected to take care of the baby. But she has issued a clear response - get rid of or I’m gone, and that is perfectly fair. Now her partner will have to make the choice. Jesus please us, and this sort of shit really does go down. WEAR A CONDOM, GET ON THE PILL. Don’t make the innocent babies suffer for your stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/99 "2010-10-12T17:48:47Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The child has wronged nobody and the partner has no right to make any demands on the child at all. First, you incorrectly assume that having no father is a wrong. It may not be ideal, but it’s not an absolute that it is wrong for the child. Second, the partner, having been indisputably alive, human, and objectively hurt by this, is the wronged party. The child is not wronged if he is born without a father in his life. Third, being wronged entitles you to reparations, and if that is that the wish of the wronged party, then Bob has to decide if staying together means more than being with his kid. She has given him her price for staying together, he has to decide if it’s something he’s willing to pay. The child does not enter into this equation at all, as he will have at least one parent regardless of what happens. He’s alive, he’ll be cared for, he shouldn’t expect more than that. Nobody’s born entitled to two parents, a dog, a nice house, friends, or happiness. And last, I think the OP should have given more choices other than ones based on what we would say to the partner that was cheated on. I wouldn’t counsel Carol or Teddy to do anything at all. I would tell Bob or Alice to either pay what their partners demanded, or leave, because they were the ones who comitted the infidelity and they should be the ones to try and fix it ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682/100 "2010-10-12T17:55:36Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > The child has wronged nobody and the partner has no right to make any demands on the child at all. > > First, you incorrectly assume that having no father is a wrong. Abandoning a child is a wrong. Depriving a child of a loving parent hurts the child. > [@](#): > > Second, the partner, having been indisputably alive, human, and objectively hurt by this, is the wronged party. That’s not the child’s fault, and it’s not the child’s responsibility to make any sacrifice for it. > [@](#): > > The child is not wronged if he is born without a father in his life. This is flat wrong. > [@](#): > > Third, being wronged entitles you to reparations Not from innocent third partes. > [@](#): > > The child does not enter into this equation at all, as he will have at least one parent regardless of what happens. He’s alive, he’ll be cared for, he shouldn’t expect more than that. Nobody’s born entitled to two parents, a dog, a nice house, friends, or happiness. This is just wrong on every count. The child is the most important part of the equation, and does not deserve to be punished for the sins of a parent or for the petty, butthurt desires of whoever that parent is banging. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-twofer-hypothetical-about-infidelity-pregnancy-and-un-reasonable-demands/556682.md?page=6)