# A UHC question **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 28, 2023, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uhc-question/983318 "2023-04-28T16:42:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uhc-question/983318/1 "2023-04-28T16:42:23Z")
In a hypothetical world in which UHC was enacted, would Joe Sixpack pay more in increased taxes than the insurance premiums he’s currently paying? If the answer was actually less, that would be a powerful argument for UHC, I would think. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uhc-question/983318/2 "2023-04-28T16:50:59Z")
> [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#): > > If the answer was actually less, that would be a powerful argument for UHC, I would think. That _has_ been an argument, it’s not even new. > **[Study: More Than 335,000 Lives Could Have Been Saved During Pandemic if U.S....](https://ysph.yale.edu/news-article/yale-study-more-than-335000-lives-could-have-been-saved-during-pandemic-if-us-had-universal-health-care/)** > > If the U.S. had had a single-payer universal health care system in 2020, nearly 212,000 American lives would have been saved that year, according to a new study > The research team further calculated that in a non-pandemic year, some $438 billion would be saved by single-payer universal health care, like Medicare for All. > **[Single-Payer Systems Likely to Save Money in US, Analysis Finds](https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/01/416416/single-payer-systems-likely-save-money-us-analysis-finds)** > > A single payer healthcare system would save money over time, likely even during the first year of operation, according to nearly two dozen analyses of national and statewide single payer proposals made over the past 30 years. > **[FACT CHECK: Medicare for All Would Save the U.S. Trillions; Public Option...](https://www.citizen.org/news/fact-check-medicare-for-all-would-save-the-u-s-trillions-public-option-would-leave-millions-uninsured-not-garner-savings/)** > > Medicare for All opponents repeatedly claim that Medicare for All is “too expensive” by presenting misleading numbers without the proper… [https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/healthcare/484301-22-studies-agree-medicare-for-all-saves-money/](https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/healthcare/484301-22-studies-agree-medicare-for-all-saves-money/) Just type “universal health care saving money” into Google and results are endless. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uhc-question/983318/3 "2023-04-28T16:58:38Z")
I don’t know if there’s a way to embed a chart, but take a look at this one from the OECD, comparing spending per nation, and see how much cheaper healthcare spending is in countries with UHC. Of course, that would not scale in the United States because of “mumble, mumble, mumble”. > **[Health resources - Health spending - OECD Data](https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm)** > > Find, compare and share OECD data by indicator. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uhc-question/983318/4 "2023-04-28T17:02:01Z")
A former nominal superior expressed the kind of opinion that poisons the argument. According to him, no one would want to become a doctor because they would no long be able to become millionaires. They would get a fixed fee for services rendered. Seems like there should be an acute shortage of doctors everywhere in the world, but the US. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uhc-question/983318/5 "2023-04-28T17:04:16Z")
> [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#): > > According to him, no one would want to become a doctor because they would no long be able to become millionaires. How many practicing millionaire doctors did he know? Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uhc-question/983318/6 "2023-04-28T17:09:48Z")
I’m sure none. I changed the subject as trying to have a constructive conversation with him wasn’t worth the effort. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uhc-question/983318/7 "2023-04-28T17:24:40Z")
Probably your best strategy in that case. Doctors [can] earn a lot, especially in high demand specialties, but they also have a lot of expenses (malpractice insurance, board fees, student debt burden, and for those in private or group practice all of he capital and operating costs involved with running a business). Very few doctors become millionaires just on their earnings alone, and even those that do don’t hit that threshold until after mid-career. A lot of doctors live up a very prosperous lifestyle but are actually deep in debt. And of course, many people don’t enter the medical field to become wealthy but because they want to help people. If you really want to get rich (and miserable), [become a personal injury lawyer with few scruples and a large billboard.](https://youtu.be/OHHngAo18Rc) Stranger ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uhc-question/983318/8 "2023-04-28T17:26:52Z")
> [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#): > > A former nominal superior expressed the kind of opinion that poisons the argument. According to him, no one would want to become a doctor because they would no long be able to become millionaires. They could become millionaires still, and in less time if they didn’t have to spend their first million paying for school. We’d have many more doctors now if the cost of becoming one wasn’t so high. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uhc-question/983318/9 "2023-04-28T17:35:43Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > If you really want to get rich (and miserable), [become a personal injury lawyer with few scruples and a large billboard.](https://youtu.be/OHHngAo18Rc) Honestly, personal injury attorneys don’t make all that much – the average salary last year was $86,000 (although obviously that will vary by area, experience, etc.) They also have a lot of the same liabilities as doctors such as high student loan debt, need to carry insurance, etc. The Thomas J. Henry’s of the world are making lots of money, but they’re doing it on the backs of hordes of underpaid associates. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uhc-question/983318/10 "2023-04-28T17:37:59Z")
> [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#): > > In a hypothetical world in which UHC was enacted, would Joe Sixpack pay more in increased taxes than the insurance premiums he’s currently paying? If the answer was actually less, that would be a powerful argument for UHC, I would think. The data has already been posted. I just want to add that the simple answer, as shown in the OECD spending charts, is that the efficiencies inherent in UHC are so great – because they cut out the insurance middleman’s incessant meddling, case adjudication, and profiteering – that the per-capita cost of coverage isn’t just less than with private insurance, but _ **much** _ less. Having the entire population as your insured pool, and the elimination of risk-rating, reduces costs even further, as does the periodically negotiated schedule of set fees. > [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#): > > A former nominal superior expressed the kind of opinion that poisons the argument. According to him, no one would want to become a doctor because they would no long be able to become millionaires. They would get a fixed fee for services rendered. Seems like there should be an acute shortage of doctors everywhere in the world, but the US. It’s a perennial argument from the right, and it’s nonsense. UHC was introduced in Canada in stages, initially only in Saskatchewan. Which led to raging right-wing pundits, many doctors, and even the American AMA getting involved, all claiming that doctors would all leave Saskatchewan if UHC got enacted. It did, and the doctors stayed. For many doctors, actually, the truth is the exact opposite of this absurd claim. Doctors are trained to provide medical care, not to argue with insurance companies, nor to administer an army of clerical staff to chase them down so they get paid – despite which, doctors frequently get stiffed by insurance companies anyway. I’ve occasionally read that some young people are discouraged from going into medicine because of the hellish frustrations of constantly fighting insurance companies. Under the single-payer systems in Canada, doctors are assured of full and timely payments while continuing to practice as independent businesses or partnerships in whatever way they see fit. Given a steady supply of patients, their income is secure and guaranteed. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uhc-question/983318/11 "2023-04-28T19:57:39Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > How many practicing millionaire doctors did he know? > > Stranger I read somewhere that becoming a surgeon in a high cost specialty, like heart or brain, was the easiest way of getting into the 1%. But that only represents a small fraction of the number of doctors, so I’m not disagreeing with you. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uhc-question/983318/12 "2023-04-28T20:08:18Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I read somewhere that becoming a surgeon in a high cost specialty, like heart or brain, was the easiest way of getting into the 1%. But that only represents a small fraction of the number of doctors, so I’m not disagreeing with you. And you’re probably going to be in your late thirties or older before you actually get certified and start making real money. And that is after you jump through all the hurdles and have sufficient luck to get to that position. It’s probably just easier to rob banks, run a cryptocurrency scham, or start your own line of pseudoscience ‘wellness’ products if all you want is to make a lot of money. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uhc-question/983318/13 "2023-04-28T20:08:22Z")
According to [this](https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/physician-millionaires/) data, 55% of doctors over the age of 50 have a net worth of over a million bucks. That is, of course, not an annual salary. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uhc-question/983318/14 "2023-04-28T20:19:42Z")
I don’t think there’s any question. The U.S. has the most expensive healthcare in the world, BY FAR. And that’s not surprising when you let the market decide price for an extremely inelastic demand. How much would you pay for cancer treatment for a loved one? Or worded differently, how much could a provider charge? The market has determined the answer: a whole lot. The net cost for UHC would be tremendously cheaper—the dollars would just flow from different sources. Bernie had it about right: Yes, your taxes may go up, but your net out-of-pocket will go way down. And keeping doctors rich, which even if true is still just an exploitation of the market factors, is a shitty reason to do nothing. Yes, less money will be made with UHC. But similar to utilities, as one example, where we have decided that the market shouldn’t decide if senior citizens freeze to death in the winter, health care should NOT be market driven. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uhc-question/983318/15 "2023-04-28T20:22:31Z")
I would think that the percentage of physicians people who want to make big bucks would indeed decrease, but the percentage who want to help people would increase. That sounds good to me. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uhc-question/983318/16 "2023-04-28T20:28:49Z")
What could be done about the health care industry? Unfortunately, it’s an insurmountable obstacle to UHC. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uhc-question/983318/17 "2023-04-28T20:29:19Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > … I’ve occasionally read that some young people are discouraged from going into medicine because of the hellish frustrations of constantly fighting insurance companies. … Not just young people: it’s what drove my father (on whom be peace) to retire years before he wanted to. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uhc-question/983318/18 "2023-04-28T20:37:10Z")
> [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#): > > In a hypothetical world in which UHC was enacted, would Joe Sixpack pay more in increased taxes than the insurance premiums he’s currently paying? If the answer was actually less, that would be a powerful argument for UHC, I would think. Others have given you the answer, but just to hammer it home. Just considering the very limited taxpayer-funded healthcare that the USA _does_ provide (medicare etc. ), that costs the average taxpayer _more_ than universal systems in countries such as the UK. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uhc-question/983318/19 "2023-04-28T20:53:27Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > malpractice insurance I’d argue that at least this cost is _also_ brought down substantially by UHC as well. At least part of Americans’ reputation for being crazy litigious and getting big awards for personal injury cases is that they need to recover enough money to be sure to be able to cover the increased health care costs and difficulty in qualifying for future insurance as a result of the injury. If health care costs are covered universally, the big awards that malpractice insurance is meant to guard against are far less justified. > [@Railer13](#): > > According to [this](https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/physician-millionaires/) data, 55% of doctors over the age of 50 have a net worth of over a million bucks. Talking net worth, that actually seems like a low number. Any upper-middle-class professional I’d expect to have a million dollars of net worth (including retirement assets, home equity) as they get towards retirement age. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uhc-question/983318/20 "2023-04-28T21:06:47Z")
> [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#): > > What could be done about the health care industry? Unfortunately, it’s an insurmountable obstacle to UHC. If you’re talking about the health _insurance_ industry, I disagree. If the government became the single payor for all healthcare, they would likely still need to contract out the risk management and administration for all those trillions of dollars. Existing health insurance organizations – the well-run ones, at least – would be ideally situated to win this business. But even if not – so what? Why should the survival of private sector companies be more important than making a critical service more available and less expensive to every American? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uhc-question/983318.md?page=2)