A UHC question

I agree with a lot of this, so of course I am going to point out what I don’t agree with :wink:

I think that few medical professionals in UHC countries would say that “every service provider . . . operates with clinical autonomy.”

And I’m not for clinical autonomy myself. For several decades I have been reading articles on how lots (sometimes claimed to be 90 percent, although I won’t say that) of back surgery is unnecessary:

The Puzzling Popularity of Back Surgery in Certain Regions

It may be that requiring insurance pre-certification, as done in the U.S., is a bad way to limit the clinical autonomy of physicians to depart from evidence based practice. But a lot of what’s wrong with is that insurers approval what should have been denied. I think even more limits are needed. If that could be done, it would help free up funding for UHC.

In single-payer UHC, the usual and correct view is that the gatekeepers are the physicians themselves. A procedure is deemed medically necessary if (a) a doctor deems it so, and (b) it’s on the fee schedule as something normally performed by doctors and hospitals. The fee schedule itself is a collaborative product of the ministry of health and the doctors’ medical association working together.

The important point here that is not always fully appreciated is that the “payer” here is a disinterested accounting entity that is completely removed from the clinical decision-making. It’s not a business, it’s a government service with a statutory obligation to pay its bills. Submissions are of course checked against prior histories to make sure that any reasonable rules and limits are being followed – rules that the doctors themselves agreed to when the fee schedule was put together – but nothing more than that. And, in fact, as trusted gatekeepers doctors can waive the rules when appropriate, for instance by deeming a pregnancy to be high risk and therefore justifying additional observation.

That’s absolutely not true, and the absence of clinical autonomy under private insurance is absolutely horrifying and completely indefensible. I wrote about it here a while back and I suggest you have a look. The intrusion of insurance bureaucrats into the doctor-patient relationship is absolutely rampant throughout the US health care system and would be considered intolerable by doctors anywhere else.

Here is a brief quote from a paper by health care economist Uwe Reinhardt (emphasis mine):

It is Reinhardt’s assertion that the absence in the United States of an overall program of budgetary control over medical expenditures, as is characteristic of the prominent European systems, results in unparalleled micro-management at the clinical level to achieve cost control unattainable on a larger scale. He writes that “…if the bureaucrats cannot somehow impose upon the healers an overall budget constraint ex ante, then they will sooner or later be driven to control their outlays on an ongoing basis, by monitoring each and every transaction for which they pay – that is, by second guessing both the providers’ clinical and pricing decisions” (Reinhardt, 1988). This appropriation of the clinical dimension of autonomy would be regarded as intolerable by physicians in other medical care systems. He suggests that “European and Canadian physicians would be appalled at the numerous intrusions into clinical decisions now routinely made by these external monitors in the United States. They probably would rise up in arms over that loss in clinical autonomy” (Reinhardt, 1988).
https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/Research/HealthCareFinancingReview/Downloads/CMS1191473dl.pdf

In a sense, that’s true here as well, as the insurers employ physicians who come up with the pre-cert criteria (even if it is a nurse who tries to implement it.)

But actually, in every country, I think the gatekeeper is funding.

Consider this from the UK:

But everything I am reading is that patients needing this class of medication will probably have to take it for life:

Also, I can’t find where I read this, but there are very few of the UK Tier 3 and Tier 4 doctors, so patients won’t even be able to get it for the insufficient period of two years.

This isn’t a slam on the NHS. A large percentage of insured Americans can’t get it yet either. But the reason isn’t because we don’t have UHC.

This situation may not substantially change, in either country, and regardless of UHC adoption, until medications in this class go off patent.

Just for the record: while, originally, all of the Blues in the U.S. had to be not-for-profit, that’s no longer the case; the national Association changed their rule on that in 1994, allowing individual Blue companies to become for-profit. They also changed the rule that required all of the state/regional Blues to be independent from one another.

For example, Elevance Health (formerly known as Anthem) is a publicly-traded, for-profit company, and operates the Blues in 15 states. But, many of the state/regional Blues do still remain independent, and not-for-profit.

Not trying to create a gotcha here; I have a genuine question.

So now the law says all medical stuff must be covered (subject to some sensible details that don’t matter for this post).

So at the end of the year C$lots has been spent on health care and during the budget process for next year the Parliament says, “We’re only going to allocate 80% of that much money for the upcoming fiscal year. When that money is gone, stop paying any medical expenses until the next fiscal year.”

What happens next? Does the public storm Parliament, is a snap election triggered, does everybody just do without care next October-December, or is the idea just so unthinkable that no Canadian politician of any stripe would ever dare to suggest giving anything less than unlimited funding to the system?

That’s the problem I’m just not seeing as surmountable in the USA and I’m genuinely curious how any UHC country meets nearly infinite demand with definitely finite money.

I knew that and was lazy in not mentioning it.

As an advocate of the mixed economy model, I think the competitive private industry model can do much good. I don’t want the government making my PC processor chip. However, there are big areas where I think non-profit is better. This includes schools, hospitals, and health care insurers.

It’s a good question and not a gotcha at all. There is no single simple answer (except maybe “quick – print more money!”) and I’m not an expert on health care funding even in my own country, but I can offer what I might call informed layman observations on how this sort of stuff plays out. None of it is particularly magical.

The first thing to note is that the public health care budget actually comes from two sources, the revenues raised by provinces, and federal government contributions in the form of the Canada Health Transfer (CHT). In Ontario, the provincial revenue for health care is primarily from taxes but there’s also a small health surcharge geared to income (typically a few hundred dollars a year and maxes out at $900/year for those earning over $200,000).

So right off the bat there are several sources of revenue that can be tweaked, rather than one almighty power, and the provinces – who are charged with actually administering their health care systems – are the ones most on the firing line if things go south, so they’re motivated to make sure that it doesn’t. If the feds make noises about cutting the CHT, dire threats are forthcoming from the provinces, especially the poorer ones, and if necessary the provinces can beef up their own portion of the funding.

But, you say, that’s all well and good, but what if the money just runs out anyway? I think the pragmatic way to look at it is that circumstances happen that stretch resources thin all the time. It happens in emergency rooms when too many critical patients arrive at once. It happened all over the place during COVID. ERs are managed by triage, larger-scale events like budget challenges are managed through a prioritization of services and cost controls. The health care system is huge and complicated, and there’s always room to shuffle things around more optimally so that the most critical needs always continue to get supported. Dealing with substance abuse is important, but not as immediately important as family health services; mental health issues are important, but not as immediately important as patients dying of COVID.

And so it goes. I’m not always happy with cost-cutting decisions, but I have to say that they’re carefully managed to have minimal impact through the method that I’ve described as nickel-and-diming. No one was happy to see prescription eyeglasses no longer covered, but that’s not going to bankrupt me. But major medical procedures of all kinds remain on the books, fully covered with no co-pay. And when my 95-year-old mother needed a pacemaker, the one she got from the public health care system (I did some research on it) was the best that money could buy – no scrimping there!

So I think in summary the short answer is that (a) the health care system is very large and complex and when budgets are stressed, there are a lot of levers to pull and dials to twiddle to keep the important stuff going; there is no “stop paying medical expenses until next fiscal year”, and also (b) some element of truth about “so unthinkable that no Canadian politician of any stripe would ever dare” to seriously undermine the much-valued public health care system. Sure, there have been cuts and minor service cutbacks, and there have been squabbles between the various stakeholders, but the system endures.

It’s completely absurd to think that anyone employed by the insurers is going to have anybody’s interest at heart except the interest of the insurer. Did you read the stuff I linked you to about how medical care in the US is fundamentally jeopardized by insurance bureaucrats constantly meddling in clinical decision-making and usurping the doctor’s right to provide the best care for his patient? And the insurers do this because that’s the only handle they have on cost control; unlike in a UHC system, there is no standardized negotiated fee schedule to control costs from the top down, so that doctors can be left in peace to do their jobs and treat their patients.

My next thoughts are around how the future of healthcare plays out. So, I have 3 possibilities, and I have to admit I’m more pessimistic than I was a few years back, due to politics, especially watching how politics played into the pandemic and wound up killing people:

  1. Pessimistic option: Republicans gain control of government again, like they did in 2017. I think if they get control again, they will likely pass something that will significantly move us away from ever achieving UHC. They suffered an embarrassment in 2017, and might be more united the next time around. It likely won’t be a priority to them, but nonetheless, I could see the ACA being rolled back significantly. Less subsidies, more Medicaid work requirements, etc.

  2. Optimistic option: Democrats get a filibuster proof majority in the Senate, along with the White House and the House of Representatives. An extremely unlikely scenario for now. But if it occurs, we get a Public Option. I don’t think they’ll waste a strong majority without making another significant move toward UHC. Just tweaking the ACA won’t be enough, mainly because we’ll still lack a real individual mandate. A Public Option offered to at least part of the population should probably be the next step.

  3. Middlin’ Option: Neither Party gains control of all the levers, sorta like we currently have. We continue with ACA as-is, and more red states (there are only 10 left) gradually accept the Medicaid Expansion. There is either a slight incremental gain, or at least no large loss…It will feel like the purgatory we’re currently in, with nothing materially changing except a few more states offering Medicaid to the working poor. The Dems might have a chance to nominally be in charge, like they were in 2021 and 2022. But without a filibuster-proof Senate, they won’t be able to do anything like a Public Option, IMO.

I wish I had a better outlook. But the politics of the US get in the way of solving substantive issues. It’s not just healthcare. It’s also climate change, gun deaths, immigration, and on and on. So, even on issues where 70% of the Public wants something, nothing gets done, because the GOP is only playing on a field with their 30% primary voters, who are bat-crap crazy…they don’t care about majorities.

If there were physician surveys in Canada and the U.S., and the question was “are you left in peace,” I’m not sure what the answer would be. But according the the Canadian Medical Assoation:

There are similar studies of U.S. docs, and they also report high levels of burnout.

I don’t say this to defend the pre-certification systems in the U.S. It seems to waste a lot of provider time and then, in my experience, the insurer does what the doc wants anyway. But I don’t think this is the biggest issue, or a UHC. What about having to spend more time with the medical records system than the patient? This has become terrible in the last 20 years or so, and also is not a UHC issue.

While fee schedules in the U.S. are high, from what I have read, the biggest factor in lack of U.S. cost control is that, after calling for approval, our docs do a lot more – often, more than is justified:

The World’s Costliest Health Care

You’re bringing in a bunch of extraneous issues that are rather detracting from the important points. I’m not claiming that medical practice in Canada is some sort of stress-free nirvana. I’m simply saying that doctors here under UHC are not subject to the dual stresses of (a) having to chase after insurance companies to get paid, and (b) having some flint-eyed bureaucrat figuratively looking over their shoulders constantly second-guessing their clinical decisions.

As for higher utilization, my WAG is that its a combination of major Big Money coursing through the health care system that makes over-utilization exceptionally profitable, especially when the doc has invested in his own testing lab as a side business, and secondly, not directly related to UHC but a uniquely American problem, is the enormous costs and risks of medical malpractice suits.

…UHC is on my list of things that will never ever be implemented properly in America until after the revolution. Because capitalism, fraud, corruption, are so baked into the system that any attempts at reform will inevitably be watered down to the point where the reforms become insignificant. The people at the top of the pyramid will invariably adapt and figure out new and more innovate ways to extract even more money from the system.

The types of reforms needed would involve a nationwide paradigm shift. And that ain’t gonna happen. It’s just so god-damn depressing. In answer to the question raised by the OP: yeah, I think taxes would go up. Insurance premiums would also go up. Everything would go up. It’s like how “defund the police” was used to leverage billions of dollars more for the police. UHC won’t be seen as an opportunity to ensure everyone gets healthcare, it will be seen as a new opportunity to make money.

I don’t agree with the counsel or despair. If more people are going to the doctor, somebody somewhere is sure to be making more money. That’s consistent with more people getting primary care.

Some of the high administrative costs should be, and probably will be, addressed by requiring insurers to adopt standard procedures, and IT improvements.

The Affordable Care Act got us about halfway to where we need to be, allowing that every health care system has problems.

In Philadelphia, the great majority of docs seem to be salaried medical school faculty. They do not have to chase after anyone to be paid. There are a lot of low-paid folks doing that for their university, and we should and will automate some of that.

As for the flint-eyed bureaucrats, as I said before, I think sometimes they aren’t flint-eyed enough. In our area, there is a dominant insurer, Blue Cross, and a dominant hospital chain, Penn Medicine (with Jefferson Health and Temple Health close behind). Blue Cross can’t really exert much cost pressure on the university-based health care systems because the big private companies insist their employees have access to all the non-profit hospitals. So any insurer push to put a prestige hospital off-network is an idle threat. As a result:

My co-pay on that would be $30. Copays are cheap. Maybe you are thing deductibles, and other limits, etc?

Same thing here.

And since I was a Fed, I get the same health insurance for the rest of my life.

Yeah, every year the GOP got control of the House, the budget would be slashed to the bone… or even more.

I see all of those as possible.

…“high administrative costs” are the least of the problems.

We are talking about a fundamentally broken system. The “corruption” is happening right out in the open, effectively sanctioned due to the pathetic lack of oversight. You can’t fix this by “adopting standard procedures” or “IT improvements.” Because this kind of thing happens at every level and just kinda gets ignored.

To fix it requires a commitment to fundamentally change what the healthcare system is for.

The ACA was an attempt to bring reform to a system within the system. And it might be the closest you ever will get to make an inherently corrupt system a tad more equitable than what exists now. But the system is still corrupt.

I’m itching to add some points about what it is like to live with UHC (and the metric system) but I don’t think I can actually add all that much apart from more noise.

The question about running out of funds is easy though (albeit not in the US?): the same as anyone running out of money. You make an over draft and push the cost to the future. In practice starting the new fiscal year with a deficit. So now you need to start saving and be more efficient, or convince those that allocate funds to give you more.

Why would you even think that they would close down for three months?

The same reason I thought the public would storm Parliament. Because all the alternatives were chosen to be jokey and impractical. Leaving whoever responded to provide the facts, without my editorializing.

The ACA is a Rube Goldberg device, and kinda messy. And it gets very little credit. But it did make large progress. Increasing the insured by about 25 million, effectively cutting uninsured rate in half, is a big accomplishment. It also made getting check-ups & wellness checks easier, and provided some structure around the plans that are offered, so that everyone is getting at least some basic benefits. It helped close some holes in Medicare drug plans. And it did all of this while cutting overall healthcare cost growth. Having the ACA during the pandemic really saved a lot of people’s bacon…It was our first ever recession where the uninsured rate didn’t shoot up.

As you said, it got us about halfway where we needed to go. I might say 40% myself, but that’s impossible to quantify exactly. To make the next big step, we have to add a public option most likely. Once we do that, then I think attacking cost growth will be the focus…

I would question what metrics would lead to such a conclusion. Consider, for example, the crucially important matter of cost and affordability. That super-tall bar over at the extreme right – that’s US per-capita health care cost compared to the rest of the world:

If you look at overall trends, cost growth continues unabated. The small downtick in the inflation-adjusted cost around 2020-2021 is attributed to decreased/delayed utilization due to the pandemic:

From the same source as the above graph:

The U.S. continues to have the highest health spending per capita among comparable countries. In 2021, the U.S.’s $12,914 per capita health spending was more than double the average for other comparably large and wealthy countries ($6,003). The country spending the second highest amount on health per capita was Germany, at $7,383.

As of second quarter 2022, health spending in the U.S. has rebounded since the beginning of the pandemic and spending on health services is growing at pre-pandemic levels.
The state of the U.S. health system in 2022 and the outlook for 2023 - Peterson-KFF Health System Tracker

If you look at the uninsured rate, the ACA has indeed had an impact:

Does that mean that “the Affordable Care Act got us about halfway to where we need to be”? With all due respect to Obama’s signature accomplishment, it’s hard to see this.

How are you going to deal with the remaining 28 million uninsured? What sort of additional Rube Goldberg-like costly patchwork might be necessary to fix this? A public option would be a welcome advance, but it won’t eliminate structural problems any more than Medicare did. Structural problems like the incessant intrusion of private insurers between doctor and patient and their involvement in clinical decision-making.* Structural problems like the complete absence of a uniform, rationalized common fee schedule applicable across the entire medical profession. Structural problems like risk-rated premiums (whether rated by individual or by group demographics) and claims denials.

And ALL of those structural problems are playing out against a background of persistently rising costs that outpace inflation and that throw open the whole question of long-term affordability. And those rapidly rising costs will continue due to the dual problems of (a) no one in a position to control them, and (b) the high costs of dealing with a private-insurance funding model.

Furthermore, some of the most powerful lobbies in Washington will strenuously oppose the necessary reforms. The insurance lobby will pull all the stops to oppose any sort of public option, as they did during the formative stages of the ACA, because they see it as a stepping-stone to widespread public health insurance, which they’d never be able to compete with. And the medical lobby will pull all the stops to oppose any sort of fee regulation, even if you show them that they’ll make the same or even more money with lower fees due to much lower overhead and guaranteed reimbursement, because they’ve been brainwashed by the insurance lobby and by right-wing ideology to believe the delusion that a public insurance option implies government “oppression”, whereas they’ve actually been oppressed and financially shafted by private health insurers since forever.

* - I’ve given you cites for this pervasive insurance meddling in the doctor-patient relationship. You don’t seem to have acknowledged them and I’m not sure if you’ve even read them. It’s a fundamental problem intrinsic to the nature of health insurance. Here’s Dr. Jack Resneck, the current president of the AMA, in an AMA Update speech in 2022, commenting on just one small aspect of that much broader phenomenon, just the one aspect of insurance pre-approvals for medication – but it applies even more for general treatments across the board, where not only are pre-approvals often required, but the most beneficial treatment options may be denied altogether in favour of cheaper ones:

[Pre-approval] has become an enormous burden in my own practice, as it has for my colleagues in every specialty around the country. And it’s not just that it’s a costly burden for practices, and it’s driving burnout among physicians and making us hire way more staff than we would otherwise need, just to fill out all this paperwork.
:
But it’s actually affecting our patients, who sit down with us in exam room. We talk about what’s wrong. We figured out a diagnosis. We come up with a treatment plan that we think is going to work. And then the patient gets to the pharmacy, only to find out that their health plan has that treatment listed as requiring prior authorization, which means their doctor now has to spend days and days, sometimes weeks, filling out paper forms and putting them in fax machines.

And then those get rejected and then having to do appeals, where you call somebody, oftentimes a non-physician, a nurse or somebody else on the other end to do what’s called a peer-to-peer appeal, to explain this patient’s condition and why they need this medication.