# A uniquely successful African state **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 2, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uniquely-successful-african-state/545329 "2010-07-02T18:40:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uniquely-successful-african-state/545329/61 "2010-07-06T10:55:14Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Doesn’t change the fact that the OP didn’t introduce a debate until well into the thread. > No, you don’t. > OK, then I’ll remind you of the obvious: that part of a nation that secedes from the rest of it is generally not considered to be an authority regarding the legitimacy of its secession. Consequently, your “under whose authority?” BS is precisely that, BS. If Hoboken, NJ seceded from the US, would you ask under whose authority they were still considered part of the US? I doubt it. [One of my main points](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12648008&postcount=52) is that the state of Somalia doesn’t exist thus has been completely to unable to give it’s blessing to Somaliland. This contrasts to your Hoboken, NJ example where there is still a central government who has the final say in succession. So I repeat: Why should Somalilanders wait another 20 years for the vague chance that Somalia can cobble up an semi-effective government to grant it succession? This doesn’t seem likely nor realistic. > [@](#): > > Not really, I was the first one to actually do a serious response to the debate you belatedly introduced. Doing that, then getting nonsense back, has convinced me that it was a mistake to give you the benefit of the doubt after the manner in which you began the thread. I don’t anticipate much in the way of future interaction with you. Drop the ego pal, you are neither the sole nor the first serious responder to this thread…which makes me wonder why am I responding to your silly trolling? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uniquely-successful-african-state/545329/62 "2010-07-06T11:09:52Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > We’ll see how things shake out with the Southern Sudan independence referendum next year. If that goes off without war (Magic 8-ball says “Odds are slim”) there may be hope for shrugging off imposed borders. Didn’t [Bashir give the South](http://www.nation.co.ke/News/Bashir%20pledge%20to%20South%20Sudan/-/1056/927376/-/xg03i0/-/index.html) his blessing to choose independence in the [upcoming referendum](http://www.afriquejet.com/news/africa-news/bashir-approves-south-sudan-referendum-commission-2010053150147.html)? I asked a few Sudanese colleges of mine (from both north and south) and I have yet to find \*\*anybody \*\*who doesn’t believe that the country will spilt. It just seems enviable. What I personally fear is that the South will either fall into a SPLA military dictatorship after gaining independence (like [Eritrea did with the EPLF/PFDJ](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Eritrea)) or [split among the many](http://articles.latimes.com/2009/sep/22/world/fg-sudan-attack22) divided southern ethnic nationalities (Dinka/Nuer/etc). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uniquely-successful-african-state/545329/63 "2010-07-06T13:28:01Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Didn’t [Bashir give the South](http://www.nation.co.ke/News/Bashir%20pledge%20to%20South%20Sudan/-/1056/927376/-/xg03i0/-/index.html) his blessing to choose independence in the [upcoming referendum](http://www.afriquejet.com/news/africa-news/bashir-approves-south-sudan-referendum-commission-2010053150147.html)? I asked a few Sudanese colleges of mine (from both north and south) and I have yet to find \*\*anybody \*\*who doesn’t believe that the country will spilt. It’s not the fear that the South will split, it’s whether the North will let it happen peacefully. That’s the reason the South Sudanese are currently tooling up just as fast as they can - and why the Kenyans are helping them. And I wouldn’t trust Bashir if he told me the sky was blue. I mean, this is a man with a warrant on his head for war crimes… ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uniquely-successful-african-state/545329/64 "2010-07-06T21:09:20Z")
Last year I spoke with a political leader from Somaliland and I have several friends from Somalia so I actually happen to know about it, but I wasn’t aware until I read this thread that there had been a new election (the third? fourth?). Inspired by this thread I wrote an article about the situation in my blog. Then I was further inspired by talking to a somalian who had read my article. So now I’ve e-mailed a party colleague in the EU parliament, as well as my party’s expert on foreign relations in the national parliament, and asked them for feedback and to pursue the issue. Tomorrow I will look into the possibility of the municipal government establishing connection via a “friendship city”. Thank you SDMB 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uniquely-successful-african-state/545329/65 "2010-07-08T17:59:30Z")
> [@Hallucinex](#): > > Not sure if it’s been mentioned yet, but Somaliland apparently had an election this last week: [Somaliland opposition candidate Silanyo wins election](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/africa/10485613.stm) > > Sounds like observers have said the election was generally [free and fair](http://www.africareview.com/News/Somaliland%20elects%20new%20leader/-/825442/950894/-/lawwypz/-/index.html), and it’s always good to see a peaceful transfer of power through the ballot-box. > I saw an interesting looking paper [here](http://www.cgdev.org/content/publications/detail/1423538) (link is to abstract, which links to article PDF), which suggests that Somaliland’s institution-building has been so successful precisely because of the lack of recognition, and the eligibility for foreign aid that would entail. That is, without being able to get external sources of support, they had to turn inwards for support and build bottom-up from there. That doesn’t really say much as to whether it should be recognised at the present time though, but looked interesting. I’ve only skimmed a bit of it so far, but might give a full read later. Hey **Hallucinex** , I just finished [that paper](http://www.cgdev.org/content/publications/detail/1423538) you recommended and it was great. Full of facts and straight to the point; that sure beats my normal source of information about Somalia ([listening to K’naan](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T5A6Hq6KNQ)) I’ll share another interesting paper I found, it’s by former U.S. ambassador to Ethiopia (1996-99) and to Burkina Faso (1987-90) [David H. Shinn](http://davidshinn.blogspot.com/). It’s called: [Somaliland: The Little Country that Could](http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/anotes_0211.pdf) and was penned in November 2002 > [@](#): > > Somaliland was an independent state for five days in 1960 before it merged with the former Italian Somalia. Since the Somali Democratic Republic became a failed state in 1991, Somaliland is the one part of the former entity that has managed to put in place sustained stability and a constitutional government accepted by most of its inhabitants. There is virtually no visible, armed security presence. Supported by an unusually talented and active diaspora, the capital of Hargeisa is experiencing a modest economic boom in spite of a continuing Saudi ban on Somaliland livestock exports, which traditionally account for most of its foreign exchange income. As recently as 1996, the atmosphere in Hargeisa was tense, and the city still reflected the extensive bombing by Siad Barre’s air force and shelling by his artillery. Today, nearly all of the damaged and destroyed buildings have been repaired or replaced. Hargeisa’s population has grown from less than 10,000 in 1991 to more than a half million. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uniquely-successful-african-state/545329/66 "2010-07-08T18:02:45Z")
Oh and here is a link to the [website of the Somaliland government](http://www.somalilandgov.com/). The front page has an interesting news title: “SOMALILAND PRESIDENT CONGRATULATES THE INCOMING PRESIDENT ELECT” ---
**Author:** ![Baffle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dec6dc/32.png) [@Baffle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baffle)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uniquely-successful-african-state/545329/67 "2010-07-09T08:40:59Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > In Africa, Eritrea at least HAD had a historic status as an entity distinct from the Ethiopian homeland, and Tanzania was assembled by the _joining_ of Tanganyika and Zanzibar, not by dismemberment; Somaliland also has a historic status as an entity distinct from the whole of Somalia, which has been alluded to throughout this thread – it is a descendant of British Somaliland, which, like Tanganyika and Zanzibar, joined with a neighbouring colony, briefly becoming part of Somalia. They later separated; I’m not sure how this is different from the separation of Ethiopia and Eritrea. ---
**Author:** ![snowmaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e99b99/32.png) [@snowmaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowmaster)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uniquely-successful-african-state/545329/68 "2010-07-13T14:25:34Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Sheikh, Sheikh, Sheikh! > Sheikh, Sheikh, Sheikh! > Sheikh Djibouti! > Sheikh Djibouti! Ladies and gentlemen, JayJay & the Sunshine Band! You know, I’d feel bad about adding to the frivolity without actually particip[ating in the thread. OP, you clearly can offer more than me just looking this up on wiki. So, what’s the deal with Somaliland? How is it different from Somalia? Edify us. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uniquely-successful-african-state/545329/69 "2010-07-13T22:44:40Z")
> [@snowmaster](#): > > Ladies and gentlemen, JayJay & the Sunshine Band! > > You know, I’d feel bad about adding to the frivolity without actually particip[ating in the thread. OP, you clearly can offer more than me just looking this up on wiki. So, what’s the deal with Somaliland? How is it different from Somalia? Edify us. Yo; wikipedia seems like a very good source of info for Somaliland a the region as a whole. However if you are to understand the modern state of Somaliland I’d recommend you start with the “protectorate” of [British Somaliland](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Somaliland) then read a bit about how Said Barre ordered the boming of [Hargeisa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hargeisa) in the late 80’s, to Somaliland’s declaration of independence in 1991. If you want to understand the central cause of their independence streak I would say that it has a lot to do with the fact that 1. Somaliland was ruled by a different European power (the UK). 2. They are geographically removed from the most unstable part of Somalia (Northwest). 3. The majority of Somalilanders belong to different clans ([Dir](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dir_(clan)) and [Ishaak](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishaak)) then then Puntlanders ([Darod](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darod)) or the Somalians from the unstable South ([Hawiye](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawiye), [Rahanweyn](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rahaweyn), etc). In fact the [border dispute between Somaliland and Puntland](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somaliland-Puntland_dispute) can attributed to the fact that the traditional borders of Somaliland includes land which have Darod-Somalis (the Puntland majority clan) who are not happy to belong to Somaliland (which is Dir and Ishaak dominated). Confusing, eh? It’s like Afghanistan. As the secular state of Somalia broke down people reverted back to the ancient clan hierarchies. Here’s a good[map of the various Somali clans](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Somalia_ethnic_grps_2002.jpg) in the horn. And [another good general link](http://www.icosgroup.net/modules/reports/chronic_failures_war_terror/somalia). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uniquely-successful-african-state/545329/70 "2010-07-14T04:18:57Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Unfortunately mate, your faux coy ploy rather detracts from the interesting subject of Somaliland versus larger Somalia (never mind ‘uniquely successful’ is absurd hyperbole). Why not get this locked and reboot. The well is poisoned. On the other hand we are getting some amusement at Djibouti’s expense. I agree that attempt at cuteness in the OP just brought out the “I don’t give a fuck” in all of us. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uniquely-successful-african-state/545329/71 "2010-07-14T04:23:57Z")
Why do we have sanctions against Somaliland and is there anything we can do to make Djibouti a more tourist friendly destination? I’m kinda aching to say, I spent the summer in Djibouti. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uniquely-successful-african-state/545329/72 "2010-07-15T09:46:46Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Why do we have sanctions against Somaliland and is there anything we can do to make Djibouti a more tourist friendly destination? I’m kinda aching to say, I spent the summer in Djibouti. We don’t have sanctions against any nation named “Somaliland”. We simply don’t recognize the country. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-uniquely-successful-african-state/545329.md?page=3)