# A very bad day for the U.S. Navy **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 10, 2007, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-bad-day-for-the-u-s-navy/415107 "2007-08-10T04:20:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-bad-day-for-the-u-s-navy/415107/1 "2007-08-10T04:20:26Z")
Just learned about this: [Honda Point disaster - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Point_Disaster) All I can say is… yikes. Career suicide for the captains, I presume. Any naval Dopers know about it? Is it still brought up as a cautionary tale in shiphandling or communications classes today? ---
**Author:** ![dnooman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-bad-day-for-the-u-s-navy/415107/2 "2007-08-10T04:25:05Z")
I guess they call it “dead reckoning” for a reason. ---
**Author:** ![IAmNotSpartacus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@IAmNotSpartacus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmNotSpartacus)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-bad-day-for-the-u-s-navy/415107/3 "2007-08-10T04:28:52Z")
Looks like more than a few saw their career on the rocks. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-bad-day-for-the-u-s-navy/415107/4 "2007-08-10T04:42:21Z")
It’s not _really_ “Dead” Reckoning, though that’s become the corrupted, accepted spelling. It’s _Deduced_, or Ded, Reckoning, meaning postion is _deduced_ from Speed_Time_Course. Ded (or ‘Dead’, if you must) Reckoning is still used, and still causes periodic mishaps, though none recently quite so spectacular as Honda Point. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-bad-day-for-the-u-s-navy/415107/5 "2007-08-10T04:45:57Z")
[QUOTE=Tranquilis] It’s not _really_ “Dead” Reckoning, though that’s become the corrupted, accepted spelling. [/QUOTE] This may or may not be the case; the etymology is under [dispute](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_reckoning#Etymology). There does not appear to be strong evidence that the phrase evolved from “deduced.” ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-bad-day-for-the-u-s-navy/415107/6 "2007-08-10T04:55:46Z")
Also, this [Staff Report](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mdeadreckoning.html) by our own **bibliophage** : > [@](#): > > The lateness of any sources that mention “deduced reckoning” or “ded. reckoning” stands in contrast to the early use of “dead reckoning.” The first citation in the Oxford English Dictionary for “dead reckoning” (spelled thus) is from 1613. In fact, in all of the OED’s citations, the modifier is always spelled “dead.” In the earliest dictionary entry I could find for the term (1708, Dictionarium Anglo-Britannicum), it is spelled “Dead-reckoning” (with the hyphen, but without any mention of “deduced”). It seems that the “dead” spelling is older than “ded.” by more than three centuries. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-bad-day-for-the-u-s-navy/415107/7 "2007-08-10T04:58:44Z")
[QUOTE=Tranquilis] Ded (or ‘Dead’, if you must) Reckoning is still used, and still causes periodic mishaps, though none recently quite so spectacular as Honda Point. [/QUOTE] When I was a SIDPERS (Standard Installation/Division Personnel System) clerk in the US Army way back in the late 1970s and early 1980s, many of us 75B typs got a laugh out of the SIDPERS duty status mnemonic for _Deceased_: DED. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-bad-day-for-the-u-s-navy/415107/8 "2007-08-10T06:16:09Z")
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.] This may or may not be the case; the etymology is under [dispute](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_reckoning#Etymology). There does not appear to be strong evidence that the phrase evolved from “deduced.” [/QUOTE] Interesting. I’ll stand by what I learned in the Navy, from people whom actually _used_ deduced reckoning as a daily part of their duties. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-bad-day-for-the-u-s-navy/415107/9 "2007-08-10T08:02:04Z")
Dead reckoning at twenty knots? Blimey. Gotta say, ‘ded’ reckoning sounds backformed to me - not that my opinion counts for much - I’ve always understood the meaning of ‘dead’ in this context not to refer to the absence of external input (i.e. dead to the world), but rather to mean _accurate/straight/precise/absolute_ - as in ‘dead centre’, ‘dead straight’ - as well as a shade of _very/complete_ as in ‘dead stop’ and ‘dead slow’. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-bad-day-for-the-u-s-navy/415107/10 "2007-08-10T12:42:03Z")
[QUOTE=Tranquilis] I’ll stand by what I learned in the Navy, from people whom actually _used_ deduced reckoning as a daily part of their duties. [/QUOTE] I don’t know that etymology is a particular specialty of the Navy, though. ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-bad-day-for-the-u-s-navy/415107/11 "2007-08-10T13:01:15Z")
Lt me link to a different one. This is not a spoof. [http://www.jacksjoint.com/navy-lh.htm](http://www.jacksjoint.com/navy-lh.htm) The main site is loaded with accounts of mariners, mostly in government service at the time of the stories. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-bad-day-for-the-u-s-navy/415107/12 "2007-08-10T14:01:43Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] I don’t know that etymology is a particular specialty of the Navy, though. [/QUOTE] Anecdotally - from my limited experience of working with ex-navy folks - I’d confirm it’s not really their strongest suit. I remember enduring any number of expositions of dodgy etymologies (including [this](http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/shit.asp), [this](http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/fuck.asp) and [this](http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/pommy.asp)) from my work-skates. ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-bad-day-for-the-u-s-navy/415107/13 "2007-08-10T14:15:59Z")
[QUOTE=Harmonious Discord] Lt me link to a different one. This is not a spoof. [http://www.jacksjoint.com/navy-lh.htm](http://www.jacksjoint.com/navy-lh.htm) [/QUOTE] [Right you are](http://www.snopes.com/military/lighthouse.asp). ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-bad-day-for-the-u-s-navy/415107/14 "2007-08-10T14:19:02Z")
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir] Just learned about this: [Honda Point disaster - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Point_Disaster) All I can say is… yikes. Career suicide for the captains, I presume. Any naval Dopers know about it? Is it still brought up as a cautionary tale in shiphandling or communications classes today? [/QUOTE] I never heard this one, but unfortunately, we have too many examples that are more recent. I was in 1985 to 1989. Shortly before I joined, the USS Ranger (CV61) made a faulty adjustment during an UnRep and collided with her supply vessel, shearing off a sponson and injuring several sailors. By reports, the Quartermaster thought the Captain’s command was off, when told to turn 10º to port, he questioned once as allowed and when told to obey, still hedged and only turn 5º and thus greatly lessened the damage. The Captain was never promoted and apparently finished his time in the USN in charge of the San Diego Boot camp. The Big “E” (USS Enterprise CVN65) ran aground on a small sandbar. This can happen from time to time (rarely does), however the Captain’s solution to the problem was to try and rock the Super Carrier off the sandbar by having all available hands go up to the flight deck and run side to side to rock the boat. 400 men at an average weight of 180 pounds gives us 720,000 pounds or 360 tons. The Big “E” weighs 93,500 tons. You should be able to understand how well this worked. Apparently, the review board decided the Captain was well suited to pushing boots in the Great Lakes. He was in charge of Great Lakes when I went to Boot Camp there. We were lucky enough to suffer through the coldest day in Great Lakes’ history while I was there. So yes, career ending is very likely. Jim ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-bad-day-for-the-u-s-navy/415107/15 "2007-08-10T14:43:20Z")
Career ending is likely, but not a done deal. Fleet Admiral (5 star) Chester Nimitz was court-martialed and reprimanded in 1907 for running the USS Decatur aground. > **[WebMD - Better information. Better health.](http://www.nimitz-museum.org)** > > The leading source for trustworthy and timely health and medical news and information. Providing credible health information, supportive community, and educational services by blending award-winning expertise in content, community services, expert... ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-bad-day-for-the-u-s-navy/415107/16 "2007-08-10T15:09:44Z")
I can’t answer the OP’s question as asked, but here is more info on the incident on this site: > **[pointhondamemorial.org](http://pointhondamemorial.org/research)** > > This domain may be for sale! Lots of pictures here: [http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/events/ev-1920s/ev-1923/hondapt.htm](http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/events/ev-1920s/ev-1923/hondapt.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-bad-day-for-the-u-s-navy/415107/17 "2007-08-10T17:43:30Z")
[QUOTE=Ponder Stibbons] [Right you are](http://www.snopes.com/military/lighthouse.asp). [/QUOTE] So much my believing it because I’d heard it on the radio years ago too. Do ex navy fib? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Ol\_Gaffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Ol\_Gaffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ol_Gaffer)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-bad-day-for-the-u-s-navy/415107/18 "2007-08-10T18:34:55Z")
Cool. I’ve excavated all over that coastline. In fact, we excavated the Southern Pacific’s Honda Section House which you can see in the photo on the Wiki page (it is the structures up along the RR line just above the cove). The Section House figured fairly prominently in the disaster as they were the first responders to the wreck. They spent all night pulling sailors out of the sea and built bonfires while the wife of the head of the Section House (the only woman on scene) treated injuries. Pretty cool stuff. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-bad-day-for-the-u-s-navy/415107/19 "2007-08-10T19:48:56Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] I never heard this one, but unfortunately, we have too many examples that are more recent. I was in 1985 to 1989. Shortly before I joined, the USS Ranger (CV61) made a faulty adjustment during an UnRep and collided with her supply vessel, shearing off a sponson and injuring several sailors. By reports, the Quartermaster thought the Captain’s command was off, when told to turn 10º to port, he questioned once as allowed and when told to obey, still hedged and only turn 5º and thus greatly lessened the damage. The Captain was never promoted and apparently finished his time in the USN in charge of the San Diego Boot camp. The Big “E” (USS Enterprise CVN65) ran aground on a small sandbar. This can happen from time to time (rarely does), however the Captain’s solution to the problem was to try and rock the Super Carrier off the sandbar by having all available hands go up to the flight deck and run side to side to rock the boat. 400 men at an average weight of 180 pounds gives us 720,000 pounds or 360 tons. The Big “E” weighs 93,500 tons. You should be able to understand how well this worked. Apparently, the review board decided the Captain was well suited to pushing boots in the Great Lakes. He was in charge of Great Lakes when I went to Boot Camp there. We were lucky enough to suffer through the coldest day in Great Lakes’ history while I was there. So yes, career ending is very likely. Jim [/QUOTE] Ship captains can sometimes be real boneheads.[The Queen Mary ran over the British antiaircraft cruiser H.M.S. Curacoa](http://members.aol.com/bry1976/qnmary/qm_war.html) in broad daylight north of Ireland in 1943. The big troop carriers traveled alone and at high speed while zigzagging in a random pattern. They stopped for nothing except engine failure. The QM was approaching the British Isles and Curacoa was sent out as anti aircraft protection. The latter was relatively old and not all that fast and as the QM zigzagged she kept cutting across the Curcoa’s wake closer and closer. Both ships held their course and eventually QM ran over Curacoa, cutting her in two and killing most of those on board. QM did nothing wrong but the skipper of Curacoa could see that she was being overtaken by the faster ship and that the crossings during the zigzags were getting closer and he didn’t do a think to avoid the collision. > [@](#): > > 2 October 1943 saw one of Queen Mary’s most unfortunate and tragic crossings of the war. As was customary on the last leg of a New York - Gourock crossing, escorts were provided to troopships to guard against possible submarine attacks. Greeted by a complement of various destroyers to provide such protection, including the light cruiser HMS Curacoa, Queen Mary had a significant edge in speed over her escorts. Because of her superior speed, Queen Mary soon over took her escort Curacoa and the zig-zag paths the two ships were following crossed. The collision sliced Curacoa in two, sending over three hundred of Curacoa’s crewmen to their death. Queen Mary suffered only minor damage and continued the voyage without stopping. ] ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-bad-day-for-the-u-s-navy/415107/20 "2007-08-10T19:56:54Z")
I just saw this while I was looking at a list of historical events that happened on my birthday. I’d read up on it last year, too. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-bad-day-for-the-u-s-navy/415107.md?page=2)