# A very clear presentation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 22, 2001, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414 "2001-02-22T03:12:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![jenkinsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cc9497/32.png) [@jenkinsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jenkinsfan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2001, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/81 "2001-02-24T23:16:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* > > > [@](#): > > > > “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” > > Now all y’all have to do is figure out just what the will of the Father in heaven is. Ok. Reread all the above Scripture and tell me what God would like for you to do. Notice especially this verse: _The Lord is not slack concerning his promises, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to usward, now **willing** that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Second Peter 3:9_ ---
**Author:** ![jenkinsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cc9497/32.png) [@jenkinsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jenkinsfan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2001, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/82 "2001-02-24T23:22:31Z")
**jmullaney,** is it your postition that God will not save someone if they ask Him to? Or, are you arguing against OSAS? I’m taking your post both ways. BTW, are you a Christian? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2001, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/83 "2001-02-24T23:31:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Ok. Reread all the above Scripture and tell me what God would like for you to do. Well, it seems to me y’all Christians have been re-reading the assorted Scriptures for the past couple of thousand years, and y’all are still arguing about it. ---
**Author:** ![jenkinsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cc9497/32.png) [@jenkinsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jenkinsfan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2001, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/84 "2001-02-24T23:33:29Z")
you quoted Matthew 7:21 and I would like to hear your position on what you think it means. This is how the Holy Spirit leads me to believe: _For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:13_ Notice this verse does not say that “whosoever shall prophecy in the Lord’s name shall be saved.” Matthew 7:21 says, _Not every one that sayeth unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven._ I believe that Second Peter 3:9 teaches us that God’s will for us is to repent and believe the Gospel. Those that Christ refers to in Mattew are frauds who are probably tring to work around Christ’s free gift of eternal life. They chose to work their way in to Heaven (prophecy) instead of surrender their hearts to Christ. They didn’t follow God’s will and they won’t go to Heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2001, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/85 "2001-02-24T23:33:55Z")
**j-fan** : _The Lord is not slack concerning his promises, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to usward, now willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Second Peter 3:9_ You meant [“not” instead of “now”](http://www.mvhs.srvusd.k12.ca.us/~wlu/entertainment/poetry/wodehouse.html), right? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jenkinsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cc9497/32.png) [@jenkinsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jenkinsfan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2001, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/86 "2001-02-24T23:39:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Ok. Reread all the above Scripture and tell me what God would like for you to do. > > Well, it seems to me y’all Christians have been re-reading the assorted Scriptures for the past couple of thousand years, and y’all are still arguing about it. \*\* You asked a question. I answered it. God bless. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jenkinsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cc9497/32.png) [@jenkinsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jenkinsfan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2001, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/87 "2001-02-24T23:42:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kimstu \* > \*\ ***j-fan** : _The Lord is not slack concerning his promises, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to usward, now willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Second Peter 3:9_ > > You meant [“not” instead of “now”](http://www.mvhs.srvusd.k12.ca.us/~wlu/entertainment/poetry/wodehouse.html), right? 🙂 \*\* Yes. :o Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2001, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/88 "2001-02-24T23:56:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jab1 \* > how do you reconcile this with the verses that say the Earth will endure forever: Deuteronomy 4:40; Psalms 78:69 and 104:5; and Ecclesiastes 1:4. I’m pretty sure Deuteronomy is what you get when Plutonium decays. I ain’t seen Psalms since I left Csalifornia. I had ecclesiastes once, but I got better. > [@](#): > > Just asking. Peter goes on, as you can see above, to say that the holy inherit the new earth. Which isn’t too far out of accordance with Moses: > [@](#): > > Therefore you shall keep his statutes and his commandments, which I command you this day, that it may go well with you, and with your children after you, and that you may prolong your days in the land which the LORD your God gives you for ever. (I don’t know whether it is clear Moses means the days or the land.) As far as ancient poetry (what rhymes with never? For ever? OK, let’s run with that) or Solomon’s limited knowledge of the workings of the universe… :shrug: For a better description of what Peter means (he was trying to get across another point, after all), as directed revealed to John by an angel, see [the Revelation of Jesus Christ](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=revelation&version=NIV&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english) ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2001, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/89 "2001-02-25T00:26:37Z")
**jmullaney** , all you did was avoid the question. You _can’t_ reconcile those contradictions, can you? ---
**Author:** ![domina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/96bed5/32.png) [@domina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/domina)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2001, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/90 "2001-02-25T04:06:05Z")
This claim has been vexing me for the last few years: > [@](#): > > You must realize that Jesus Christ, God’s Perfect Son, has already paid our sin debt. A lot of Christians say “Jesus died for your sins,” and assume it’s self-evident what it means, but to me it isn’t. In the Old Testament, everybody sinned, being human as they were. And some of them appear to have been forgiven if they repented. Were they all actually sent to hell because Jesus hadn’t made his sacrifice yet? Conversely, no Christian that I know claims Jesus’ sacrifice exempts one from having to behave morally. If you do sin, you have to repent. So what did Jesus’ death actually change? I mean, apart from us having to transfer our loyalties from Yahweh to the new guy? ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2001, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/91 "2001-02-25T06:19:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freyr \* > Jersey Diamond wrote: > > God does not reject those who seek him. > > Yes, He does. I’m proof of that. No, he doesn’t. The only proof I see of you is that you \* tried \* Christianity, and as it seems from what you posted, it was to complex or difficult for you. If you’re not now, you never were. > [@](#): > > I recommend you read a book, **JD** ; _Frankenstein, The Modern Prometheus_ by Mary Shelly. Read that and then tell me if the Creator owes something to His Creation. Frankenstein was a fictional character in a book, I think we can both can agree on that. Even if he was real, he would have been human. God is God, you can’t compare apples to clouds. Sorry if that sounds dumb, but you cannot say oranges, cause that would put them in a similar category, and that’s absurd. Again, read Job and tell me what you think. > [@](#): > > Again, no. One of the greatest joys of my life was getting out of the Judeo-Christian value system of “black/white” & “yes/no” & “our way or NO way.” There’s a wonderful world of color beyond the black and white system of Fundamentalist Christianity. I hope someday you might see it. Of course, the easier way always seems better. > [@](#): > > Everyone in the world has that power. I happen to choose to exercise it. The God of the Old Testament has a habit of asking for blind obeidence from His followers, starting with Adam and Eve. Sorry, but that’s not a God I can follow or even respect. We should not question our creator, after all he is God. What your doing is practicing the free-will that God gave you. I’m sorry you feel that way. \*\* freyr \*\* I don’t want to come off as sounding mean, but it makes me crazy that people talk about Christianity as if it were some ice cream they tried,and \* ‘it just wasn’t for them’. \* If you were a christian, you will always be. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2001, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/92 "2001-02-25T06:27:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Freyr \* > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > Again, no. One of the greatest joys of my life was getting out of the Judeo-Christian value system of “black/white” & “yes/no” & “our way or NO way.” There’s a wonderful world of color beyond the black and white system of Fundamentalist Christianity. I hope someday you might see it. > > > > Of course, the easier way always seems better. > > > > \*\* I’ve never figured out why Christians seem to think that blazing your own moral path is “easy.” To me, Christianity is the easy path. You have all of your rules set down already, no thinking required. Just do what your God tells you. Those of us who have gone our own way have to figure out what morality **is**. We don’t have it handed to us from on high, to shut up and follow. We struggle with our choices, dissect our actions, pound out our overall philosophy, and try to make sense of our place in the universe with nothing more of a guide than our personal conscience. This is not “easy.” This is very difficult. Don’t talk to me about easy… ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2001, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/93 "2001-02-25T07:11:41Z")
vanilla wrote: > [@](#): > > I fully expect tracer to come in here with a humorous comment on harden… Hey, some bible verses just make fun of themselves… ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2001, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/94 "2001-02-25T07:58:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > > \*\*The only proof I see of you is that you \* tried \* Christianity, and as it seems from what you posted, it was to complex or difficult for you. \*\* My, what arrogance. If someone with all good intentions and open mind seeks Jesus and he does not feel the same presense you do, suddenly they are inferior to those who got the message? > [@](#): > > \*\*Of course, the easier way always seems better. \*\* This was already addressed nicely by **jayjay**. I see it as more arrogance. Oh, it’s so _hard_ to be a Christian. And it’s \*way “to (sic) complex or difficult” to understand too! > [@](#): > > \*\*We should not question our creator, after all he is God. \*\* Every time you pray, you are questioning Him. > [@](#): > > **If you were a christian, you will always be.** I’ll bet the _numerous_ people here who were raised to be quite devout Christians who later in life for very personal reasons decided that it wasn’t for them (White courtesy phone, **pldennison** …) would disagree quite vehemently with that statement. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2001, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/95 "2001-02-25T08:28:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by domina \* > In the Old Testament, everybody sinned, being human as they were. And some of them appear to have been forgiven if they repented. Were they all actually sent to hell because Jesus hadn’t made his sacrifice yet? No. I am usually not quite so certain about theological matters, but I am pretty sure on this one. I would be pretty sure no matter whom it was that you asked about and said “Did they all go to Hell?” I don’t think you had to be perfectly without sin, even under the covenant of Moses. But that isn’t the major source of my objection to the argument about people before Jesus, or far away from Jesus, or too stupid to understand Jesus. It’s not about us, and how we heard, or what we know. It is about God loving every soul that lives, and loves. I know it doesn’t seem possible that Jesus could save the souls of those who died in sin a thousand years before he was born. But the limits that make that impossible are human limits. > [@](#): > > Conversely, no Christian that I know claims Jesus’ sacrifice exempts one from having to behave morally. If you do sin, you have to repent. So what did Jesus’ death actually change? I mean, apart from us having to transfer our loyalties from Yahweh to the new guy? It isn’t a club. You don’t pay your dues, and get your salvation button. You open up your heart to every soul you know, and try your very best to fill your heart with Love. That changes your whole outlook on sin. You do what you think you should do, because what you should do is a real good thing to do. What you should do is treat every single soul you ever encounter as if you had just met the Lord Himself. You screw it up constantly, because you can’t be as good as you wish you could be. You ask for and receive forgiveness, because you love, and because you are loved. What did Jesus’ sacrifice change? It changed me. It made me want to be a better person. Someday when I die, and leave the tribulation of flesh behind it may well make me actually be a better person. But better, or worse, it made me loved. That is a very big deal. ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2001, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/96 "2001-02-25T08:45:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > **No, [God] doesn’t [reject people]. The only proof I see of you is that you \* tried \* Christianity, and as it seems from what you posted, it was to complex or difficult for you. If you’re not now, you never were.** Isn’t this just a version of No True Scotsman? Quix: I had God in my life for 4 years. Now I don’t. He didn’t accept me. Freyr: Yeah, I had God in my life for X years too. Now I don’t. He didn’t accept me. Ben: Me neither! super\_head: Yeah, me neither! (a rising crescendo of “Me neithers”) JerseyDiamond: Well, you must not _really_ have been Christians, then. No True Christian would be rejected by God. I think Ben had a truly wonderful post–for how many years does one have to pet an aggressive dog and be bitten before the dog’s owner admits, “Well, Scruffy just doesn’t like you”? I banged my head against the wall of Christianity for four years. Did I need 5? 8? A _lifetime_ of discontentment? Trust me, I did not abandon Christianity because it was too complex or difficult. I was brainwashed by a rather literal cult, so the complexity was never an issue. And it wasn’t particularly difficult, because I had a large group of Christian friends lifting me up. I left Christianity because it did not give me the “fuller life” that it had advertised. Prayer seemed like a monologue, and made me feel silly, because I was so obviously talking to myself. Quix ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2001, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/97 "2001-02-25T09:22:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > \*\*God is God, you can’t compare apples to clouds. \*\* This is one of the great rhetorical tricks of the fundies. They want us to believe in something that is screwy and makes no sense. Normally, you can argue against something that is screwy and makes no sense by comparing it to analogous, familiar cases where the absurdities are more clear. So what do they do? They just say that God is ipso facto non-comparable to anything. Why does this argument never seem to cut both ways? If we want to say that God is unjust, we are told that God is so far beyond earthly justice that we just can’t recognize how just he is. How about “God is selfish”? You see, it might seem selfless to sacrifice himself on the cross- but that’s part of his sneaky passive-agressive plan, devised by a mind so far beyond our own understanding that we can’t recognize it as selfishness. How about, “God is a pedophile”? It’s just that God is so far beyond normal pedophilia that only atheists can recognize how profoundly perverted he really is. > [@](#): > > \*\*Again, read Job and tell me what you think. \*\* Quix was a Christian for years. He’s also smart, and that means that unlike most fundies he’s actually read the Bible already. N’est-ce pas? > [@](#): > > \*\* > We should not question our creator, after all he is God. \*\* I believe I addressed this earlier. Would you care to address my comments? Would you care to address _anything_ I’ve said? -Ben ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2001, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/98 "2001-02-25T19:04:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jenkinsfan \* > **jmullaney,** is it your postition that God will not save someone if they ask Him to? There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. There is no one, however wicked and guilty, who may not confidently hope for forgiveness, provided his repentance is honest. Interior repentance is a radical reorientation of our whole life, a return, a conversion to God with all our heart, an end of sin, a turning away from evil, with repugnance toward the evil actions we have committed. At the same time it entails the desire and resolution to change one’s life, with hope in God’s mercy and trust in the help of his grace. As Jesus said: “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” > [@](#): > > Or, are you arguing against OSAS? I don’t know what OSAS is. > [@](#): > > BTW, are you a Christian? I don’t keep the gospel, but I sympathize with those who do. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jab1 \* > \*\ ***jmullaney** , all you did was avoid the question. You _can’t_ reconcile those contradictions, can you? \*\* :eek: I don’t believe either Moses or King Solomon had the full revelation of truth. You might as well accuse me of being unable to reconcile Ptolomy and Copernicus. I can’t. So what? In any case, we all know that _eventually_ Peter will be right – though his larger point works equally as well in regards to the personal death we’ll all face one day. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jayjay \* > To me, Christianity is the easy path It is a narrow path. Acting morally isn’t always easy, but it can bring joy. ---
**Author:** ![Brian\_Bunnyhurt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9d8465/32.png) [@Brian\_Bunnyhurt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brian_Bunnyhurt)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2001, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/99 "2001-02-25T19:46:46Z")
Before anyone quotes any more scriptures to prove God’s will, we have to first prove that the scriptures in question represent God’s will, who apparently hired a lousy editor. [http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald\_morgan/inconsistencies.html](http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@The\_Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tim)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2001, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/100 "2001-02-25T20:12:50Z")
I totally agree that actual morality is the hardest to keep. However I don’t think that the Bible and God provide actual morality. God’s laws when violated bring hell. Moral laws that are followed because of doing what is right as opposed to fearing the consequences are actual moral laws, and are very difficult to follow. They are also hard to find. Also as for not being able to judge God, if you say that God is good you have judged God. You are no longer able to respond to attack by saying God is above judgement. If God is said to be good you have judged him. If you follow fully that God can not be judged you can say nothing of God’s moral character. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414.md?page=6)