# A very clear presentation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 22, 2001, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414 "2001-02-22T03:12:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2001, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/101 "2001-02-25T21:41:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brian Bunnyhurt \* > we have to first prove that the scriptures in question represent God’s will, who apparently hired a lousy editor. There aren’t any inconsistencies in what Jesus taught God’s will was. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@The\_Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tim)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2001, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/102 "2001-02-25T21:46:18Z")
There also isn’t sufficient reason to believe that Jesus was giving the will of God. Things that are internally consistent aren’t neccesarily true. ---
**Author:** ![Mapache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@Mapache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mapache)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/103 "2001-02-26T02:32:31Z")
Posted by Elaine, Mapache’s daughter, age 8 today: Dear Kimtsu, Please tell Mr. J Fan he isn’t telling the truth. Itchy the Beagle is a Movie Star. He’s in 2 of my favorite Movies, All Dogs Go To Heaven 1 and 2. He is Charlie Barkin’s best friend. Charlie Barkin gets run over by a car in Number 1 and goes to Heaven, but he comes back to help a little girl who is lost. Then in Number 2 Itchy goes to Heaven too. He gets a halo and wings but the best part is that when he is in Heaven he doesn’t have any fleas any more. Charlie Barkin says that fleas go to the Other Place. Then they have to come back to Earth and Itchy’s fleas come back too. I have both Videos and I have watched them about 20 times each. Sometimes I get my Daddy to watch them with me so he knows I am telling the Truth. Love, Elaine ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/104 "2001-02-26T04:54:40Z")
jmullaney wrote: > [@](#): > > There aren’t any inconsistencies in what Jesus taught God’s will was. Maybe not (although there _are_ several inconsistencies between the Gospels), but even so, what Jesus did teach as being God’s will turns out to be [pretty damn tyrranical and capricious](http://www.bettybowers.com/biblequiz.html). (Note: This link requires the Flash plug-in.) ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/105 "2001-02-26T05:08:56Z")
Ouch Tracer! Where do you keep finding these things? And here I thought the phrase “devil’s advocate” was only figurative! 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/106 "2001-02-26T05:11:59Z")
Thank you for the Straight Dope, Elaine! I never saw _All Dogs Go to Heaven_, and I think when I asked **j-fan** about his former sig it just didn’t occur to him that I might not know who the original Itchy the Beagle was. Glad to get that cleared up. Love, Kimstu ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/107 "2001-02-26T05:38:38Z")
> [@](#): > > I recommend you read a book, JD; Frankenstein, The Modern Prometheus by Mary > Shelly. Read that and then tell me if the Creator owes something to His Creation. > > ``` > Frankenstein was a fictional character in a book, I think we can both can agree on that. Even if he > was real, he would have been human. God is God, you can't compare apples to clouds. Sorry if > that sounds dumb, but you cannot say oranges, cause that would put them in a similar category, > and that's absurd. Again, read Job and tell me what you think. > > ``` Of course Dr. Victor Frankenstein was human. His monster on the other hand was not. Don’t dismiss _Frakenstein, The Modern Prometheus_ because you haven’t read it. (I’m assuming you haven’t, or you might have known the difference between Dr. Frankenstein and his Monster) Think of the book as an allegory, or even better, a parable. I know the Big Guy often used parables to illustrate His point, does that make them any less true or important? ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/108 "2001-02-26T15:52:25Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by jenkinsfan \* > [@](#): > > jmullaney, is it your postition that God will not save someone if they ask Him to? Or, are you arguing against OSAS? I’m taking your post both ways. \*\* [QUOTE] \*Originally posted by jmullaney \* > [@](#): > > I don’t know what OSAS is. \*\* I believe that what **j-fan** means is “Once Saved, Always Saved”, a doctrine which posits that once you become a Christian, nothing you can do can ever undo your salvation in God’s eyes. Even renouncing your faith isn’t enough. It certainly makes God sad for his children to turn away, but once you are “His”, that’s it. It is usually referred to as “Eternal Security” by its adherents. “OSAS” can sometimes be taken as a perjorative term, though not always. Most Southern Baptists believe in OSAS. Other fundamentalist denominations do not believe it however, most notably the Church of Christ and several other ‘Baptist’ denominations. Hope this helps. [hijack] **Polycarp** , did you get my email? [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/109 "2001-02-26T17:45:29Z")
> [@](#): > > There aren’t any inconsistencies in what Jesus taught God’s will was. “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.” – [Matthew 12:30](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+12:30&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on) “…for whoever is not against us is for us.” – [Mark 9:40](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MARK+9:40&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on) ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/110 "2001-02-26T18:28:37Z")
**MEBuckner** – a) that has nothing to do with God’s will b) I don’t consider the phrases “with me” and “on my side” to be vastly different in meaning; so, I’m not sure what you are getting at. Compare the Greek: [http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp\_dir/c/983229531.html#40](http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/983229531.html#40) [http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp\_dir/c/983229310.html#30](http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/983229310.html#30) Are you with me? ---
**Author:** ![More\_Cowbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@More\_Cowbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/More_Cowbell)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/111 "2001-02-26T19:22:54Z")
Ok **JerseyD** , I wasn’t going to post here, but your comments just were too much. No one can tell me I wasn’t a Christian. For 15 years I was a Christian, and for a number of those years I was not only devout, but taught in the church, did missionary work and put my Christianity before eveything else, and I mean everything. I didn’t “try” Christianity for a while, I lived it. I daily took up my cross. And the more I sought after God’s heart, the more I realized that Christianity was full of too many holes and empty reasoning to be considered truth, much less a path to salvation. There is nothing complex about Christianity. In fact, I think it’s over-simplified for the masses, and those who do use their mind and not just their heart must reason away a hell of a lot. I find that reasoning flawed and unconvincing, no matter how intelligent and eloquent they are. But I’m not about to pass judgement on them, for that isn’t my place. In fact, I admire their ability to believe so fervantly, as I once did. However, my honest search for God’s heart led me away from Christianity, not towards it. For you to make blatant statements about people and their search for God is quite insulting and shows the arrogance, intollerance and lack of understanding so prevelant in the Christian faith. I miss a lot of things about church, but the attitudes and reasoning you continue to display is certainly not included in those things. In fact, I’m thankful I don’t associate with that kind of thinking anymore. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/112 "2001-02-26T22:54:29Z")
[quote] \*Originally posted by Satan \* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > > > [@](#): > > > > **If you were a christian, you will always be.** > > I’ll bet the _numerous_ people here who were raised to be quite devout Christians who later in life for very personal reasons decided that it wasn’t for them (White courtesy phone, **pldennison** …) would disagree quite vehemently with that statement. Please include me in that group. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/113 "2001-02-26T23:13:40Z")
Heck – although I was raised an atheist, I tried to be a Christian for about six months. I’m still a deist – but I haven’t repented yet. So put me in that list too. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/114 "2001-02-26T23:41:06Z")
Wow, what a pot of message! First, **Jersey** is not at fault in her approach to the theology in question. She is, IMHO, in judging the sincerity of those who state they sincerely practiced Christianity, be it for three days or 18 or 25 years, and then found themselves led away from it. My own conclusion is, God isn’t finished with **any** of us yet. And a wide variety of minds can be changed over the next few years. Including mine, and **Freyr** ’s, and **pldennison** ’s, and **Jersey Diamond** ’s. I’m currently reading John Shelby Spong’s _The Easter Moment_ – a fascinating book, whether you accept his premises or not. But what motivates me to bring it up here is that, if you once grant him his premise of a Tillichian “ultimate ground of all being” god who somehow (and don’t worry about the details; Spong doesn’t) manifests himself through the person of Jesus of Nazareth, then _every statement he makes thereafter is something that even David B. could not quibble with_ – and from it all, he comes up with _a meaningful understanding of the Resurrection_. (It’s not one I personally would buy, but it is one that **can** work for rationalists with an attachment to Christianity.) There is something scary in that – it’s kind of like finding the army on your right pulled a forced march in the night and are now around on your left! 🙂 **Mars Horizon** – I did get your e-mail, and have spent a couple of days thinking about what to respond and how. A bad habit of mine – several people have asked me questions I’ve never come up with the right answers to. ☹ **Jenkinsfan** , I know you’ve read my response to the question you raise several places, but here goes again: We are saved by the **grace of God** , and not by anything we do. We accept that grace through **faith** in His goodness and mercy, by putting our trust in Him. And, all other things being equal, we are expected to live out that faith in the doing of His will. Certainly a baby, a quadraplegic, a deathbed convert is not going to be judged on the basis of that quote – that was not its purpose. But I’ll betcha you know some folks who “claim the name and talk the talk, but don’t walk the walk” – I sure as Columbus, Ohio do! **Jmullaney** , I’d welcome your “take” on that last paragraph in particular, since you bring a fresh viewpoint to almost everything connected with Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2001, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/115 "2001-02-27T00:28:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satan \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by JDeMobray \* > > > > **Well, if I was going to join a church, this sounds like one that I could come to terms with fairly easily. 🙂** > > Ha! I am winning the “conversion cup” 1-0! > :D\*\* Make that 2-0; you got me several months ago. 😃 As far as the OP - others have said much more eloquently than I the things I have to say. So I guess this is a hijack. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2001, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/116 "2001-02-27T00:53:52Z")
Of course Dr. Victor Frankenstein was human. His monster on the other hand was not. Don’t dismiss _Frakenstein, The Modern Prometheus_ because you haven’t read it. (I’m assuming you haven’t, or you might have known the difference between Dr. Frankenstein and his Monster) Think of the book as an allegory, or even better, a parable. I know the Big Guy often used parables to illustrate His point, does that make them any less true or important? \*\* [/QUOTE] Yes, I know the difference between him and his monster, thats why I said \* frankenstein \* was \* human \*. But thanks for trying to clarify that for me. Oh and yes, I do know the story, that’s why I can’t compare them. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2001, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/117 "2001-02-27T01:06:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > **Jmullaney** , I’d welcome your “take” on that last paragraph in particular, since you bring a fresh viewpoint to almost everything connected with Christianity. Were it scripture, I’m sure someone someday would figure out a way to twist that “all else being equal” clause and make your whole paragraph mean the opposite of what it says! 😃 But, I like it. Remember [Koran 2:14](http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.014): > [@](#): > > And when they meet those who believe, they say: We believe; and when they are alone with their Shaitans, they say: Surely we are with you, we were only mocking. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2001, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/118 "2001-02-27T01:31:16Z")
\*\* Mayor Quimby \*\*, Why did you become such an active member of the church? Was it something you just wanted to try because it was ‘the right thing to do’? Did you feel anything, anything spiritually while you were in church? I’m not talking about a ‘I feel good because I helped someone’ feeling, I mean the Holy Sirit. I experience such a great joy. Not anything can give me that same feeling, cause it’s only from the Holy Spirit that this feeling comes. Have you ever felt something like that? I don’t think that feeling is a feeling you can get and ignore, or decide that it is nothing one day. You talk about to many holes and empty reasoning; when you believe, when you feel the spirit those things are not even a thought in your mind, it’s too powerful. God handles everything after that. Another thing you have wrong is that you don’t search for Gods heart, he seeks yours. > [@](#): > > For you to make blatant statements about people and their search for God is quite insulting and shows the arrogance, intollerance and lack of understanding so prevelant in the Christian faith. I miss a lot of things about church, but the attitudes and reasoning you continue to display is certainly not included in those things. In fact, I’m thankful I don’t associate with that kind of thinking anymore. Many people get insulted for many reasons. Religion happens to be one of the great insulters to non believers of that particular faith. If you don’t believe my faith, you probably will be insulted. It’s a part of life. As for intollerance, arrogance, and lack of understanding, God doesn’t have to be anything but fair and just, not in our terms, in his. I’m sad that you don’t associate yourself with God. I hope you will return one day. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2001, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/119 "2001-02-27T01:37:54Z")
> [@](#): > > My own conclusion is, God isn’t finished with **any** of us yet. And a wide variety of minds can be changed over the next few years. Including mine, and **Freyr** ’s, and **pldennison** ’s, and **Jersey Diamond** ’s. My mind cannot be changed. I do believe that he is not finished with us yet. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2001, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414/120 "2001-02-27T01:46:53Z")
Mars Horizon wrote: > [@](#): > > I believe that what **j-fan** means [by OSAS] is “Once Saved, Always Saved”, a doctrine which posits that once you become a Christian, nothing you can do can ever undo your salvation in God’s eyes. Even renouncing your faith isn’t enough. It certainly makes God sad for his children to turn away, but once you are “His”, that’s it. It is usually referred to as “Eternal Security” by its adherents. Well, hey! That sounds like a good way to stack Pascal’s Wager in your favor. Just convert, one at a time, to every religion that preaches an OSAS-type doctrine, and you can’t lose! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-very-clear-presentation-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/55414.md?page=7)