# A veteran cops perspective on using lethal force. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 25, 2014, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-veteran-cops-perspective-on-using-lethal-force/696418 "2014-08-25T00:26:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-veteran-cops-perspective-on-using-lethal-force/696418/1 "2014-08-25T00:26:32Z")
I think this is the best written explanation for the use of lethal force that I’ve seen. He even includes videos of confrontations that didn’t end well for the cop. His comments and cites about cops being beaten to death by unarmed suspects is very informative. I realize he’s using the Michael Brown case as an example. But he’s not arguing who’s right or wrong. He freely admits he doesn’t know. Very few facts are known and it’s pointless to argue the case right now. I’m still very much on the fence and waiting to hear what facts are presented to the grand jury. Can we discuss the points he makes about police tactics? How batons and pepper spray won’t immediately end a dangerous confrontation with the police? Even bullets won’t immediately stop someone charging right at the cop. **disclaimer** I have no way to verify this blog’s author. He sounds legit but read it and decide for yourself. > **[A Dose of Reality for Ferguson, Missouri](https://chrishernandezauthor.com/2014/08/24/a-dose-of-reality-for-ferguson-missouri/)** > > Unlike much of America, I’ve stayed quiet about the shooting death of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri. As a cop, I know initial media reports about any incident are usually wrong. I also … > [@](#): > > Since I don’t know the actual truth I’ll keep this opinion in the land of conjecture, where it belongs. I won’t scream about racism. I won’t demand prosecution as a way to curry favor with a particular demographic. I won’t excuse the thieving, brutal punks who use this alleged injustice as an excuse to be the murderers and looters they already were. I won’t let dumbass fantasies like “unarmed people can’t be a threat”, “he could have just used pepper spray” or “there’s never a reason to shoot someone more than once” influence my opinion. Instead, I’ll stand by and wait for actual evidence. > > If that evidence shows Officer Wilson murdered Brown, I’ll fully support his prosecution. But if the evidence shows Wilson acted both legally and morally, I’m 100% on his side. Either way, I won’t let emotions drive my decision. Maybe a few others on TV and online, and a whole bunch of people in Ferguson, should try to keep their emotions in check as well. ---
**Author:** ![Boogly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Boogly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boogly)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-veteran-cops-perspective-on-using-lethal-force/696418/2 "2014-08-25T03:36:25Z")
What points about the tactics would you like to discuss? He seems to say that some officers use firepower because stun guns/pepper spray don’t always work. He also points out that bullets don’t always work, should we then go to automatic firepower? Flesh sensing exploding shells? It may be hard to talk about tactics without knowing the situation that would require any tactics. In almost any situation we would have to assume the mindset of at least 2 people at the time of the instance. Given only these 3 variables I foresee only a ‘yeah, but what if…’ thread. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-veteran-cops-perspective-on-using-lethal-force/696418/3 "2014-08-25T04:35:55Z")
I guess the real issue is how little the public knows about the challenges and dangers of police work. I knew they were risking getting shot. But hadn’t thought about how hard it is to subdue someone without injuring them. That an officer is putting his life at risk by using a baton or other intermediate weapon and relying on them to stop a violent suspect. Its gave me a lot to think about. I want to check with my local police and see if they still offer ride alongs. See for myself what they are dealing with night after night. > [@](#): > > I’ve lost count of the times I’ve heard the term “unarmed teenager”. Yes, Brown was an unarmed 18 year old. He was also 6’4″ and 292 pounds. Anyone who thinks an unarmed, 6’4″, 292 pound man can’t be a threat has never been punched in the face. Unarmed people can be extremely dangerous. > > In 2012 an unarmed 17 year old beat an El Paso police officer to death. The officer was 29 years old, a former Marine and veteran of Iraq and Afghanistan. > [@](#): > > Here’s a little-known reality about intermediate weapons: they don’t always work. In 20 years as a cop I’ve used my baton twice. Both suspects wound up in the hospital… eventually. At the time I was hitting them, they weren’t impressed. I’ve also pepper sprayed around 30 suspects. Pepper spray works on everyone… eventually. Some people don’t react to it right away. And even if you get a hit, that hit might not be enough to stop the suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Ken001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/43a26b/32.png) [@Ken001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ken001)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-veteran-cops-perspective-on-using-lethal-force/696418/4 "2014-08-25T05:08:24Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I realize he’s using the Michael Brown case as an example. > > I’m still very much on the fence and waiting to hear what facts are presented to the grand jury. Interesting blog. However this is the second thread (and one of many posts on SDMB) which assume Officer Brown faces some sort of criminal charge. To the best of my knowledge he has not been charged with anything - indeed he is likely to be exonerated. ---
**Author:** ![Boogly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Boogly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boogly)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-veteran-cops-perspective-on-using-lethal-force/696418/5 "2014-08-25T07:17:17Z")
[![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt6kKhlX8vU) IT’S COMING RIGHT FOR US! It could be counter-argued that minorities aren’t trained to deal with police officials. I’ve seen how minorities are at risk of getting hurt but it’s ok because officers had to take charge of a situation. THEY ARE COMING RIGHT FOR US!!! However when police officers are heavy handed it might be seen as ok, because police = right. Almost all the police officers I’ve known don’t think cop = right. Most I’ve known try to calm a situation to find the facts. ETA: What tactics did you want to talk about? yup…cops take on additional risks. But they are aware of the risks…if they can’t deal with the risks they should go to their police union to get training. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-veteran-cops-perspective-on-using-lethal-force/696418/6 "2014-08-25T13:03:01Z")
There are some relevant points about police work and tactics here. People who talk about shooting a suspect in the leg, for example, don’t know that this is not how police are trained because it’s not all that realistic, and they sometimes overlook the fact that clubs can be very dangerous (there’s a reason many police department users Tasers instead). Then again there’s also a ton of bullshit like this: > [@](#): > > A Dose of Reality > [@](#): > > I expected a loud chorus of hysterical cries from people who had no idea what the hell they were talking about > [@](#): > > pathetically ignorant of the reality of violence > [@](#): > > That’s probably a deliberate lie > [@](#): > > full propaganda Yes, only one side here needs a dose of reality - the side that says the killing of an unarmed person seems unjust. The other side, if we have to call it that, has raised hundreds of thousands of dollars in support of a guy who hasn’t been charged with a crime, and likely won’t be. Fair _and_ balanced! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-veteran-cops-perspective-on-using-lethal-force/696418/7 "2014-08-25T13:31:56Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Yes, only one side here needs a dose of reality - the side that says the killing of an unarmed person seems unjust. No, the side that automatically attacks the police even in cases where a shooting is clearly justified also needs such a dose. So does the side claiming “INNOCENT TEENAGER MURDERED BY RACIST COP!” > [@](#): > > I expected a loud chorus of hysterical cries from people who had no idea what the hell they were talking about You characterize this as bullshit. It isn’t, as you admit yourself. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-veteran-cops-perspective-on-using-lethal-force/696418/8 "2014-08-25T13:33:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, the side that automatically attacks the police even in cases where a shooting is clearly justified also needs such a dose. I didn’t realize you were a member of the grand jury or one of the groups investigating the shooting. Since you clearly have more facts available to you than the public does, please dish some dirt. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-veteran-cops-perspective-on-using-lethal-force/696418/9 "2014-08-25T13:44:26Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Its gave me a lot to think about. I want to check with my local police and see if they still offer ride alongs. See for myself what they are dealing with night after night. Strongly, strongly, strongly recommended. It’s the old thing about walk a mile in their shoes. Police work, for the most part, is boring and monotonous, except for the few moments when you are so terrified that you could shit through a screen door and not touch the wire. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-veteran-cops-perspective-on-using-lethal-force/696418/10 "2014-08-25T14:10:21Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I guess the real issue is how little the public knows about the challenges and dangers of police work. I knew they were risking getting shot. But hadn’t thought about how hard it is to subdue someone without injuring them. That an officer is putting his life at risk by using a baton or other intermediate weapon and relying on them to stop a violent suspect. But the public has all the information to understand how dangerous police work is in the form of data as opposed to anecdotes from one cop who doesn’t seem particularly impartial. The reality is that police works not actually that dangerous. You are more likely to be hurt being a commercial fisherman, or a logger, or a cab driver, or a number of other things. Additionally, you are also more likely as a cop to be injured being accidentally hit by a passing motorist on the street while conducting a traffic stop, or and some other accidental non-violent way than you are beating up a suspect or getting shotor stabbed. If you want a dose of reality, it can’t be in the form of selective anecdote that overestimate how dangerous it is. Plenty of people do more dangerous jobs for less money and prestige, AND manage to not constantly try to garner sympathy or pretend NOBODY else can understand what they go through. The idea that beating someone with a baton puts your life in danger is pretty much laughable. I would love to see some criminal use that defend in court the next time he beats some other criminal with a baseball bat or something. “Your honor, my clients decision to accost that man with a baseball bat put his life in danger!”. Besides, if police work is routinely that dangerous, do you really think they would allow unarmed, untrained civilians to ride along with them? > [@Clothahump](#): > > Strongly, strongly, strongly recommended. It’s the old thing about walk a mile in their shoes. Police work, for the most part, is boring and monotonous, except for the few moments when you are so terrified that you could shit through a screen door and not touch the wire. Why do I need to walk a mile in their shoes to make suggesting on public policy based on data? Do you need to spends day teaching, or nursing, or be if a senator to have an informed opinion on how those people do their jobs? Sure, I suppose it might sway you one way or another, but it’s shouldn’t really supplant the use of data, or invalidate one’s opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-veteran-cops-perspective-on-using-lethal-force/696418/11 "2014-08-25T14:38:51Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > … The reality is that police works not actually that dangerous. You are more likely to be hurt being a commercial fisherman, or a logger,… You couldn’t me more wrong. I’ve never read about a tuna, or a tree for that matter, with a gun laying in wait for anyone. - These three law enforcement officers were among the **48 officers** around the nation who died in 2012 as a result of felonious incidents in the line of duty, according to the FBI’s latest Our latest LEOKA report also provides information on another **47 officers** who died during 2012 as a result of accidents sustained in the line of duty and on the **52,901 law enforcement officers** assaulted in the line of duty.\* That’s from the [FBI.](http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2013/october/latest-law-enforcement-officers-killed-and-assaulted-report-released/latest-law-enforcement-officers-killed-and-assaulted-report-released) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-veteran-cops-perspective-on-using-lethal-force/696418/12 "2014-08-25T14:40:18Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I didn’t realize you were a member of the grand jury or one of the groups investigating the shooting. Did this sound like it made sense when you previewed? Because it doesn’t. If only members of the grand jury or investigating groups should express their opinions, then why are **you** expressing your opinion? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-veteran-cops-perspective-on-using-lethal-force/696418/13 "2014-08-25T14:44:17Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > But the public has all the information to understand how dangerous police work is in the form of data as opposed to anecdotes from one cop who doesn’t seem particularly impartial. The reality is that police works not actually that dangerous. > [@Morgenstern](#): > > You couldn’t me more wrong. I’ve never read about a tuna, or a tree for that matter, with a gun laying in wait for anyone. I think **brickbacon** is referring to [this piece Vox did a couple of days ago that compared the dangers of various professions.](http://www.vox.com/2014/8/22/6053627/being-a-police-officer-is-dangerous-these-jobs-are-more-dangerous) It’s interesting data but I agree it’s kind of misleading to compare the rate of accidents in, say, fishing or logging to people trying to hurt or kill police. People in those professions are far more likely to die than cops are, but an accident isn’t the same thing as a homicide. > [@Shodan](#): > > If only members of the grand jury or investigating groups should express their opinions, then why are **you** expressing your opinion? You suggested the shooting was clearly justified. I don’t think that’s so clear, but if you’re part of the investigation you must have facts at your disposal that I don’t. Can you share some of those facts? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-veteran-cops-perspective-on-using-lethal-force/696418/14 "2014-08-25T14:53:02Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Strongly, strongly, strongly recommended. It’s the old thing about walk a mile in their shoes. Police work, for the most part, is boring and monotonous, except for the few moments when you are so terrified that you could shit through a screen door and not touch the wire. If you want to get one side of the story, a ride-along is a great way to go about it. You are never going to ride with the officers that the public in certain neighborhoods are having problems with. You are going to ride with vetted officers who know they are there for show. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-veteran-cops-perspective-on-using-lethal-force/696418/15 "2014-08-25T15:03:31Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > You couldn’t me more wrong. I’ve never read about a tuna, or a tree for that matter, with a gun laying in wait for anyone. Actually, I am correct. Google almost any list of most dangerous jobs and those jobs are more dangerous by almost every measure. Occasionally, cab drivers slip below police officers, but the others aren’t even close. Maybe you need to look up the word to understand what it means. > [@Morgenstern](#): > > That’s from the [FBI.](http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2013/october/latest-law-enforcement-officers-killed-and-assaulted-report-released/latest-law-enforcement-officers-killed-and-assaulted-report-released) The BLS reports there being 21.8 fatalities per 100,000 for police officers and 21.3, 86.4, and 111.8 fatalities per 100,000 for cabbies, loggers, and fishermen (respectively). Fishermen average $13/hour too, and don’t generally have cushy pensions. By every statistical measure the latter two jobs are MUCH more dangerous. Now if you want to make some distinction between homicides and accidents, that’s fine, but it has nothing to do with how dangerous something is. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-veteran-cops-perspective-on-using-lethal-force/696418/16 "2014-08-25T15:06:55Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > The reality is that police works not actually that dangerous. You are more likely to be hurt being a commercial fisherman, or a logger, or a cab driver, or a number of other things. Additionally, you are also more likely as a cop to be injured being accidentally hit by a passing motorist on the street while conducting a traffic stop, or and some other accidental non-violent way than you are beating up a suspect or getting shotor stabbed. If you want a dose of reality, it can’t be in the form of selective anecdote that overestimate how dangerous it is. Plenty of people do more dangerous jobs for less money and prestige, AND manage to not constantly try to garner sympathy or pretend NOBODY else can understand what they go through. Easy for you to say. Why don’t you put YOUR ASS on the line? Either put up, or shut up. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-veteran-cops-perspective-on-using-lethal-force/696418/17 "2014-08-25T15:09:10Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think **brickbacon** is referring to [this piece Vox did a couple of days ago that compared the dangers of various professions.](http://www.vox.com/2014/8/22/6053627/being-a-police-officer-is-dangerous-these-jobs-are-more-dangerous) It’s interesting data but I agree it’s kind of misleading to compare the rate of accidents in, say, fishing or logging to people trying to hurt or kill police. People in those professions are far more likely to die than cops are, but an accident isn’t the same thing as a homicide. > > You suggested the shooting was clearly justified. I don’t think that’s so clear, but if you’re part of the investigation you must have facts at your disposal that I don’t. Can you share some of those facts? I wasn’t referencing that particular piece, but it serves the point fine. I don’t think the distinction you are trying to make is germane given that: 1. A fatal accident kills you the same as a intentional homicide 2. Danger is a measure of expected risks and outcomes, not specific acts no matter their repugnance 3. Given that loggers, cabbies, etc. cannot actively take many steps to avoid said risks, the accidental nature of those deaths is secondary. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-veteran-cops-perspective-on-using-lethal-force/696418/18 "2014-08-25T15:12:17Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Easy for you to say. Why don’t you put YOUR ASS on the line? > > Either put up, or shut up. First, you have no idea where and when I have put my ass on the line. Second, what I have personally done is not really germane to a discussion about public policy or how quantifiably dangerous something is. But feel free to keep spouting ridiculous slogans. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-veteran-cops-perspective-on-using-lethal-force/696418/19 "2014-08-25T15:17:06Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > I wasn’t referencing that particular piece, but it serves the point fine. My mistake. > [@](#): > > I don’t think the distinction you are trying to make is germane I think it’s worth noting, but if you’re talking about “dangerous” in a general way, as I guess **aceplace57** was, then yes, you’re not shading the truth or anything if you say other jobs are more dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-veteran-cops-perspective-on-using-lethal-force/696418/20 "2014-08-25T15:32:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > My mistake. > > I think it’s worth noting, but if you’re talking about “dangerous” in a general way, as I guess **aceplace57** was, then yes, you’re not shading the truth or anything if you say other jobs are more dangerous. Listen, I am not saying I do get the sentiment you are expressing, but why does the distinction between homicide and (basically) an unavoidable accident matter as a matter of public policy or to the danger of each job? Like if I asked if being a pretty woman in a men’s jail is as dangerous as free climbing mountains, does it really matter at all what the nature of the danger is? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-veteran-cops-perspective-on-using-lethal-force/696418.md?page=2)