# "A vicious \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 11, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937 "2010-08-11T15:04:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/41 "2010-08-11T20:13:53Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > > [@Zeldar](#): > > > > “Will the Cycle be Unbroken?” > > This one didn’t faze me, actually. Maybe they’ll have a version that way to unseat [Johnny Cash & Family - Will The Circle Be Unbroken](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLFbUbmH7To) and the dozens of others recorded by all sorts of people. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/42 "2010-08-11T20:27:09Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > > [@spark240](#): > > > > Oh dear. Running only about 56% literate right now. > > I am enjoying the discussion and feeling like I am learning stuff, but really don’t need the condescension. :rolleyes: I’m not intending condescension to you or anyone. Posters round here often note evidence that SDMB literacy is exemplary, so it’s only fair to note the reverse when it arises. I happen to be on the right side of this one, but I make no claim to always be so. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/43 "2010-08-11T20:56:25Z")
> [@Wilbo523](#): > > [Vicious Circle vs Vicious Cycle - Google Fight : make a fight with Googlefight](http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=vicious+circle&word2=vicious+cycle) > > Cycle wins the google fight Based on this Google Fight, I’m not convinced > **[Loss leader vs Lost leader - Google Fight : make a fight with Googlefight](https://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=loss%2Bleader&word2=lost%2Bleader)** > > Type 2 keywords and click on the 'Fight !' button. The winner is the one which gets best visibility on Google. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/44 "2010-08-11T21:04:34Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > I’m not intending condescension to you or anyone. Posters round here often note evidence that SDMB literacy is exemplary, so it’s only fair to note the reverse when it arises. > > I happen to be on the right side of this one, but I make no claim to always be so. …aaaaand you succeed in coming off as condescending in your post stating that condescension is not your intent. - I appreciate learning that vicious \*circle \*came first and that \*circle \*can be used to mean _cycle_ - I don’t appreciate being told I am not literate - simply offensive and untrue - I don’t think hearing “I am right” - other than in a fun, jokey sort of way, which I would grant you - is appropriate. There is no right, per se - when I have spent years talking to CEO’s of billion-dollar corporations about vicious and virtuous cycles, I am comfortable that it is appropriate and correct for the business context I have used it in. Sorry for the hijack - I find this type of stuff fascinating. Please carry on. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/45 "2010-08-11T21:16:33Z")
I thought we settled this long ago. It’s “circle.” Or “Sid.” ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/46 "2010-08-11T22:11:22Z")
I don’t think I’ve ever even heard “vicious circle”. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/47 "2010-08-11T22:13:26Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > There is no right, per se - when I have spent years talking to CEO’s of billion-dollar corporations about vicious and virtuous cycles, I am comfortable that it is appropriate and correct for the business context I have used it in. Well, I disagree. A literate\* person would recognize that the OP question was looking for “vicious circle,” and that “vicious cycle,” no matter how widely used, is a corruption of the longer-standing term. - You understand I’m using this to mean “knowledgeable or educated, familiar with literature,” not “able to read and write,” right? And that it’s always a relative term? I’m just saying that, in this instance, the SDMB community isn’t as smart as we like to think we are. Maybe I should have left it to **DianaG**. > [@DianaG](#): > > Dorothy Parker wept. That’s the pithiest response, in that it encapsulates all of the following: 1. Dorothy Parker was a key member of the “Vicious Circle” of the Algonquin Round Table lunch set and discussion group. 2. Dorothy Parker (though not without personal foibles) was superlatively literate, and could be witheringly contemptuous of those who were not. 3. One must be somewhat literate to know these things. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/48 "2010-08-11T22:32:10Z")
By the way, it seems that [“virtuous cycle”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtuous_cycle) is also a corruption of “circle.” Probably “virtuous circle” itself is constructed by analogy to “vicious circle.” Amusingly, Wikipedia’s associated disambiguation and discussion pages include several “vicious cycle” usages. Anyway, _ **WordMan** _, if you’re really giving talks centered on these concepts, I suggest you start using the “circle” constructions. A small percentage of your audience will think you smarter, and the rest won’t notice the difference. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/49 "2010-08-11T22:42:38Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > 1. One must be somewhat literate to know these things. One must be somewhat literate _about what it now an especially arcane area of trivia_ to know these things. There’s no need to congratulate oneself too much for being all brushed-up on one particular _Jeopardy!_ category. I for one am perfectly content to thumb my nose at what’s Correct in this case to employ what makes more sense to me, just as I am perfectly content to thumb my nose at prescriptivist grammarians who tell me that split infinitives are _verboten_ in English. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/50 "2010-08-11T22:44:23Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > > [@Dead\_Cat](#): > > > > It’s definitely “vicious circle”. Anyone who thinks it is “vicious cycle” has misunderstood someone saying “vicious circle” in a strong New Jersey accent. > > Here’s where I first heard it. And revisiting the quote, no wonder I got confused: > > “We are trapped in a vicious circle of economic, intellectual, social and political death. Inferior housing, inferior education which in turn leads to inferior jobs. We spend a lifetime in this vicious circle. Or in this vicious cycle going in circles. Giving birth to children who see no hope for the future but to follow our miserable footsteps.” > -Malcolm X, 1963. It rather sounds like Malcolm–who I usually think of as a precise speaker–had it right, but then a moment’s uncertainty about which way it was, and introduced the “Or…” to cover himself. Yeah, no wonder. Again, nobody should feel bad for using the wrong word. Be glad to learn the right one. ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/51 "2010-08-11T22:47:40Z")
M-W aside, those saying that “circle” can serve a metaphor for the literal “cycle” in an idiomatic phrase are way off base. Sing it with me, now: _It’s the CYYYYYYYYCLE of liiiiiiiiiiife_… …what? ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/52 "2010-08-11T22:50:51Z")
Oh, man. This [XKCD](http://www.xkcd.com/140/) implies cycle. That kind of bums me out. I think I need some nachos for solace. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/53 "2010-08-11T22:51:35Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > > [@spark240](#): > > > > 1. One must be somewhat literate to know these things. > > One must be somewhat literate _about what it now an especially arcane area of trivia_ to know these things. There’s no need to congratulate oneself too much for being all brushed-up on one particular _Jeopardy!_ category. Ahem. Generally, one’s pool of knowledge must be both wide and deep for one to accumulate what less educated people call “arcane pieces of trivia.” Thumbing your nose doesn’t make you right. It makes you petulant. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/54 "2010-08-11T23:05:57Z")
My immediate thought was that it should be “son of a bitch”. I don’t know why. Then I realized what the poll was about and voted for “cycle” as “vicious circle” doesn’t make sense (to me). ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/55 "2010-08-11T23:09:57Z")
Cabaret. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Alan Moore** > In no-longer-pretty cities there are fingers in kitties. > There are warrants, forms, and chitties and a jackboot on the stair. > Sex and death and human grime, in monochrome for one thin dime, > But at least the trains all run on time but they don’t go anywhere. > Facing their Responsibilities either on their backs or on their knees > There are ladies who just simply freeze and dare not turn away > And the widows who refuse to cry will be dressed in garter and bow-tie > And be taught to kick their legs up high in this vicious cabaret. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/56 "2010-08-12T00:01:39Z")
I’d say circle, but cycle is also fine. For those of saying that circle makes no sense, have you never seen the kind of diagram which has a start-point leading to a second point which leads back to the third point (perhaps with extra points in between)? That’s represented as a cycle, because you end back at the starting point. Circle makes as much literal sense as cycle. Roundabouts in Northampton are vicious circles. Vicious cycles are what Boadicea would have ridden in Amsterdam. ---
**Author:** ![11811](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/9d8465/32.png) [@11811](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/11811)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/57 "2010-08-12T01:30:27Z")
…soise. What? I like soup.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/58 "2010-08-12T01:40:04Z")
Traditionally its circle. I suspect cycle has become more commonly used due to domestic violence and Lenore Walkers ‘cycle of violence’ model or variants of it. Otara ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/59 "2010-08-12T12:49:14Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > > [@jjimm](#): > > > > Also you can do that joke where you form your finger and thumb into a circle and make it go “raaar”, then say “what’s that?” > > This is what I learned from this thread! There’s more… Point to the joint between your hand and arm and make it go “raaar”. What’s that? A terror-wrist. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/60 "2010-08-12T13:13:53Z")
“Vicious circle” is how I’ve always heard it. I even remember something satirical in _Mad_ magazine or the like as a child that showed a juvenile-delinquent circle beating up on another geometric object. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937.md?page=4)