# "A vicious \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 11, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937 "2010-08-11T15:04:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![In\_Winnipeg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a8b319/32.png) [@In\_Winnipeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/In_Winnipeg)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/61 "2010-08-12T13:41:30Z")
I immediately thought “lie”. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/62 "2010-08-12T13:54:20Z")
I’m in the cycle crowd, for reasons already expounded upon. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/63 "2010-08-12T14:35:36Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Thumbing your nose doesn’t make you right. It makes you petulant. Yes, of course. Because we live in a world where the only choices are reverence or petulance, with no option for having a sense of humor about these things. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/64 "2010-08-12T15:02:24Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > I have never heard ‘circle’ until this thread. My WAG: Yes, you have. You just didn’t notice it because outside of set phrases, “circle” and “cycle” are relatively interchangeable in English. > [@Wilbo523](#): > > Cycle wins the google fight “vicious circle”: [About 1,750,000 results](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=%22vicious+circle%22&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=CyymmXQpkTNLzEZG6hAScqbmNBgAAAKoEBU_QzE7Q) “vicious cycle”: [About 1,210,000 results](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22vicious+cycle%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=) And, when I start typing in the search box, at “vicious c” the \*first \*suggestion is “vicious circle,” \*followed by \*“vicious cycle.” > [@WordMan](#): > > I don’t appreciate being told I am not literate - simply offensive and untrue Nitpicky distinctions like this are the hallmark of literate people–i.e., people who read a shit-ton. > [@KneadToKnow](#): > > I for one am perfectly content to thumb my nose at what’s Correct in this case to employ what makes more sense to me, just as I am perfectly content to thumb my nose at prescriptivist grammarians who tell me that split infinitives are _verboten_ in English. The rule about splitting infinitives is external and artificial to the language. Even a knowledgeable prescriptivist wouldn’t say it’s “correct.” On the other hand, even a descriptivist will concede that it’s possible for a speaker to make an error in their speech. And “vicious cycle,” while it may be at \*least \*edging towards legitimacy if it isn’t there yet, at the very least \*started \*as an error. Cf. “cole slaw” vs. “cold slaw.” ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/65 "2010-08-12T15:03:28Z")
What the hell? Never before this thread have I ever heard even suggested that it might be anything other than “circle”. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/66 "2010-08-12T15:07:23Z")
> [@KneadtoKnow](#): > > Yes, of course. Because we live in a world where the only choices are reverence or petulance, with no option for having a sense of humor about these things. Of course not, and my post was actually meant humorously, if a bit bitingly. You see, mocking other people’s actual knowledge isn’t really less obnoxious than correcting people over trivial things. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/67 "2010-08-12T16:40:19Z")
> [@Gustav](#): > > What the hell? Never before this thread have I ever heard even suggested that it might be anything other than “circle”. Right. I’ve never heard it either. From that alone, I’d guess that any significant use of “vicious cycle” is fairly recent in origin. Possibly it came about from that rich source of false etymology and guesswork, corporate buzzwords. But I’d wager that only the Internet (and the fact that one can publish things on the Internet that have not been vetted by an editor) has given it anything like enough prominence that there’s even a question. Sure, you can find 1.2 million hits on it, but on the Internet you can find untold millions of hits on all sorts of things we know for a fact aren’t true, including misspellings. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/68 "2010-08-12T17:23:20Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > You see, mocking other people’s actual knowledge isn’t really less obnoxious than correcting people over trivial things. I \*really \*don’t get that mindset, especially on a board dedicated to _fighting ignorance_. > [@Sailboat](#): > > (and the fact that one can publish things on the Internet that have not been vetted by an editor) There are \*plenty \*of incompetent editors and proofers out there. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/69 "2010-08-12T17:36:06Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Amusingly, Wikipedia’s associated disambiguation and discussion pages include several “vicious cycle” usages. Including a Lynyrd Skynyrd album and a hip hop album. The Wikipedia entry is very bad on this issue. It defines virtuous circle and vicious circle extensively but but does not discuss the etymology or history of the term at all, and it repeatedly uses “virtuous cycle” and “vicious cycle” interchangeably with the original terms. The page also links to a Wall Street Journal article that uses “vicious cycle.” ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/70 "2010-08-12T18:13:02Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > But I’d wager that only the Internet (and the fact that one can publish things on the Internet that have not been vetted by an editor) has given it anything like enough prominence that there’s even a question. I understand your logic, but I don’t think this is true. I’ve been hearing the phrasing with “cycle” for as long as I can remember, and – perhaps somewhat surprisingly – I can remember back quite a while before the internet was prominent at all. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/71 "2010-08-12T18:32:52Z")
Cycle? Fucking cycle is just trailing by six votes? I weep for the English language. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/72 "2010-08-12T19:47:10Z")
I don’t understand why both can’t be correct. Just because one came first doesn’t make the other _wrong_. Maybe you should next argue over how to pronounce “banal”. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/73 "2010-08-12T19:51:07Z")
Persons who say _vicious cycle_ are not to be trusted. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/74 "2010-08-12T20:01:23Z")
bastard. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/75 "2010-08-12T20:21:17Z")
> [@glowacks](#): > > I don’t understand why both can’t be correct. Just because one came first doesn’t make the other _wrong_. My mom told me about an interview she overheard on the radio one time where a guy kept saying something really “sticks in his claw.” The way language works is that we develop set expressions. Replacing one of the words in that expression with a word that sounds similar and lends a similar meaning or connotation is wrong. Now, it can \*become \*acceptable, but that doesn’t mean it’s not an error when it first starts happening. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Persons who say _vicious cycle_ are not to be trusted. Do you have special homing bees for that? Oh please say yes. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/76 "2010-08-12T20:24:53Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > > [@glowacks](#): > > > > I don’t understand why both can’t be correct. Just because one came first doesn’t make the other _wrong_. > > My mom told me about an interview she overheard on the radio one time where a guy kept saying something really “sticks in his claw.” The way language works is that we develop set expressions. Replacing one of the words in that expression with a word that sounds similar and lends a similar meaning or connotation is wrong. Now, it can \*become \*acceptable, but that doesn’t mean it’s not an error when it first starts happening. > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > Persons who say _vicious cycle_ are not to be trusted. > > Do you have special homing bees for that? Oh please say yes. It’s not so much that I have special homing bees for that, as it is that the bees’ targeting program can be modified at will. Otherwise I’d have to be constantly breeding new bees, which would involve raiding the countryside for new breeding stocks, and before long we’d have some sort of weird colony collapse syndrome on our hands. Anyway, I have tessered over the remote and assigned 4,696 bees to your service. Just remember that they will not on any account attack Kristen Bell. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/77 "2010-08-12T20:49:52Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Anyway, I have tessered over the remote and assigned 4,696 bees to your service. Is there a programming manual? I don’t see a programming manual. > [@](#): > > Just remember that they will not on any account attack Kristen Bell. Saving her for later, eh? ---
**Author:** ![gurujulp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba9def/32.png) [@gurujulp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gurujulp)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/78 "2010-08-12T21:02:57Z")
I would SAY circle. I would write/think cycle. ---
**Author:** ![DaveRaver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daveraver/32/1078_2.png) [@DaveRaver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaveRaver)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/79 "2010-08-14T02:49:18Z")
It’s cycle, of course! We seem to be losing the fight against ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937/80 "2010-08-14T21:12:41Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > I’ve been hearing the phrasing with “cycle” for as long as I can remember, and – perhaps somewhat surprisingly – I can remember back quite a while before the internet was prominent at all. Eh. I don’t recall ever hearing/reading it before this thread; but if I did, I would have dismissed it as an obvious error. > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > My mom told me about an interview she overheard on the radio one time where a guy kept saying something really “sticks in his claw.” The way language works is that we develop set expressions. Replacing one of the words in that expression with a word that sounds similar and lends a similar meaning or connotation is wrong. Now, it can \*become \*acceptable, but that doesn’t mean it’s not an error when it first starts happening. Sore point with me: I see a lot of homonym (or near-homonym) errors, like saying “the missile _honed_ in on its target.” > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > It’s not so much that I have special homing bees for that, as it is that the bees’ targeting program can be modified at will. **Thank you** for not using _honing_ bees. > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Is there a programming manual? I don’t see a programming manual. You have to [dance around shaking your fanny](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waggle_dance). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vicious-________/549937.md?page=5)