# A victory for fetus rights!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2007, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-victory-for-fetus-rights/392436 "2007-02-16T01:45:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-victory-for-fetus-rights/392436/101 "2007-02-17T18:41:52Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Me either. However, if someone asserts that it is, it would seem to me to be a consistent position to assert that it has full human rights. Are their any other classes of humans without full human rights? [/QUOTE] No, there aren’t, and I agree it would be a consistent position…but believing it yourself is a long way from convincing everyone else. > [@](#): > > I alluded earlier to using extreme measures to recover a dead body; witness the hikers recently who were lost in a blizzard. If a fetus has full human rights, how is the dead body which has been expelled from the mother any different? I understand that the practical concerns are tremendous. Should that matter? Same answer, it will matter to some but not others. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-victory-for-fetus-rights/392436/102 "2007-02-17T18:51:09Z")
Hurm. I think it’s fair to say that at the very least, those fetuses that are properly implanted & developmentally on the path to successful birth & functionality are humans. The deeper question is, given such a definition of human, what “universal” human rights pertain to those as well as all other human beings. This includes not only infants but adults, the aged, persons in persistent vegetative state, persons suffering from spongiform encephalopathy, persons in horrible chronic pain, convicted murderers, & some poor schlemazel who just got bisected in a train crash & is bleeding to death. Any appeal that boils down to, “All humans in all places deserve maximal care & preservation,” is not going to fly in my book, whether it’s a pro-life argument or a parody of one. That just doesn’t work in war, triage, policing, or humane medicine, so it fails in my estimation as a general moral rule. It’s a self-deceiving bait & switch to come up with a set of rules on “human rights” based on non-vegetative, non-terminal, neurologically healthy, young adults; then insist on applying those rules to other phases of human existence. Now, there may be a good moral argument for preferring not to have an abortion & not to perform an abortion without good reason. But this does not necessarily entail a full moral equivalence to children already born. In any case, the “good reason” threshold for abandoning the life of a fetus obligate to the womb is not identical to that for a child already born. And there’s little use, imo, in enforcing legal rights on a life that is unseen, when it is unclear whether it is even viable, against the mother that carries it. It’s very hard to force a woman neither to abort nor to sabotage her fetus’s long-term health. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-victory-for-fetus-rights/392436/103 "2007-02-17T19:04:25Z")
[QUOTE=foolsguinea] It’s a self-deceiving bait & switch to come up with a set of rules on “human rights” based on non-vegetative, non-terminal, neurologically healthy, young adults; then insist on applying those rules to other phases of human existence. [/QUOTE] Just the one right, eh? The right to life? And to have that life given the same respect and consideration as any other human life. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-victory-for-fetus-rights/392436/104 "2007-02-17T19:18:37Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] It certainly has become socially unacceptable to engage in behaviors that harm an in-utero baby, if not legally unacceptable. It is hard for me to speak for all pro-lifers in this context, because I am not necessarily of the opinion that LEGALLY a fetus is a human with full rights. I believe that MORALLY it is, but that is a different thing. Of course, this shows that making a statement about what “pro-lifers” think is bound to be wrong, because there is no one “pro-life” opinion. **Stratocaster’s** opinion and mine are different, although perhaps as similar as any two pro-life opinions on this board. It irks to see anyone, pro-choice or pro-life, presuming to know what I think just because I use that label to describe myself. And it happens a lot. [/QUOTE] Fair enough. I (and probably **Kimstu** ) was using the term “pro-life” to refer to those who believe that a fetus is a human entitled to the same rights as an infant. I think it follows from that belief that things like failure to control one’s diabetes which results in miscarriage should be prosecuted as reckless homicide. Or that a woman with a known increased risk of miscarriage should be legally required to stay in bed for the duration of the pregnancy, etc. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-victory-for-fetus-rights/392436/105 "2007-02-17T19:29:08Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Just the one right, eh? The right to life? And to have that life given the same respect and consideration as any other human life. [/QUOTE] Funnily enough, I started to say, “Any appeal that boils down to, ‘All humans in all places deserve maximal care & consideration,’ is not going to fly in my book,” then replaced “consideration” with “preservation.” How much & what kind of consideration does an embryo at 6 weeks deserve? Or, more properly, what should that consideration cause us to do? When we consider its status carefully, don’t we find that it’s not even certain to be a viable baby rather than hopelessly deformed or even a teratoma? So, should the law step in to protect a life that may not be a life? And if so, how? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-victory-for-fetus-rights/392436/106 "2007-02-17T19:42:19Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] At this point, that’s still way more parents who are willing to go through the expense and bureaucratic hassle of adopting a child than there are domestic children available for adoption. Which is why so many prospective adoptive parents wind up adopting from China, Russia, Latin America, etc. [/QUOTE] Any many of those won’t go domestic even if there were plenty of children available to adopt. There are too many ‘what ifs’ in domestic adoption for a lot of people. A shortage of babies available in U.S. adoptions is a good thing. (BTW, depends on where you are - in Minnesota there is no problem placing kids of any race, even with disabilities. However, I’ve heard tales from other parts of the country that disabled minority children are more difficult to place - even as infants). ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-victory-for-fetus-rights/392436/107 "2007-02-17T19:46:16Z")
While I felt like poking holes in the argument Kimstu made, on reflection, it’s not _that_ different from my own feelings. Prohibiting, with the blunt instrument of law, women from having abortions doesn’t simply & purely give us more healthy babies. Are you going to force them to take their folate? Are you going to keep them from environmental teratogens at the appropriate weeks of fetal development? Are you going to regulate their alcohol intake? Can the love & care necessary to bear & rear a happy child ever be legislated? The education of the populace is, at this point, more effective than trying to put an unpopular law over on the majority. And the need for education goes in both directions. We have two factions in this country that seem to think that they have everything to lose, & that the other side is _teh evil._ We have too many people in this country arguing passionately about human rights (& both sides tend to appeal heavily to individual rights-above-all arguments), & drawing conclusions about medical ethics from a superficial concept of pregnancy, even though unburdened by even a junior biology major’s understanding of fetal development. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-victory-for-fetus-rights/392436/108 "2007-02-17T19:53:05Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Me either. However, if someone asserts that it is, it would seem to me to be a consistent position to assert that it has full human rights. Are their any other classes of humans without full human rights? [/QUOTE] The brain dead. That’s because a brain dead body, like a fetus, is human but not a person. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-victory-for-fetus-rights/392436/109 "2007-02-17T19:58:32Z")
Oh, yeah, I left them off the list. But true. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-victory-for-fetus-rights/392436/110 "2007-02-17T20:10:51Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Have I called it indisputable? Like anything at all I write, you are of course free to poke holes in it and show how i’m wrong. Why don’t we, I don’t know, _debate_ this? I’m sure you’re having fun with your gotcha reversal, but without backing it up you’re just mocking from a position you haven’t established. What about my post was nonsense? [/QUOTE] You quoted my response. Do you deny that there are things you could do right now to advance the cause of eradicating the sexual exploitation of children in Thailand? Donating money, lobbying for the redirection of your tax dollars? Since you’re not doing that, can I surmise, as others have in this thread (apparently you as well) regarding the pro-life position, that you don’t really hold this belief? That you don’t really oppose the sexual abuse of children in Thailand? If you believe that would be a faulty supposition on my part, can you explain how that differs in substance from the “pro-lifers don’t really care about the lives of fetuses” argument offered up in this thread? Same point I made previously. Feel free to debate it. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-victory-for-fetus-rights/392436/111 "2007-02-17T20:14:18Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] I think the real question is whether \*actually \*it is a human with being. All else flows from that. If actually it is a human being, then morally and legally it should be treated as one. [/QUOTE] It is certainly a human being, a fact beyond dispute. Do you mean something like “personhood”? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-victory-for-fetus-rights/392436/112 "2007-02-17T20:19:10Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] The brain dead. That’s because a brain dead body, like a fetus, is human but not a person. [/QUOTE] What status do you assign a person who has temporarily lost all brain function, a flat-liner who will regain his consciousness? This is a rare but actual circumstance, occurring, for example, in cases of severe hypothermia. While in the state where he has no brain activity–none whatsoever–is this entity just a large blob of tissue, without any right to live? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-victory-for-fetus-rights/392436/113 "2007-02-17T20:24:17Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] **Stratocaster’s** opinion and mine are different, although perhaps as similar as any two pro-life opinions on this board. It irks to see anyone, pro-choice or pro-life, presuming to know what I think just because I use that label to describe myself. And it happens a lot. [/QUOTE] Well put, as usual! ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-victory-for-fetus-rights/392436/114 "2007-02-17T20:29:44Z")
[QUOTE=foolsguinea] How much & what kind of consideration does an embryo at 6 weeks deserve? Or, more properly, what should that consideration cause us to do? When we consider its status carefully, don’t we find that it’s not even certain to be a viable baby rather than hopelessly deformed or even a teratoma? So, should the law step in to protect a life that may not be a life? And if so, how? [/QUOTE] No. [QUOTE=Strtocaster] It is certainly a human being, a fact beyond dispute. Do you mean something like “personhood”? [/QUOTE] All fetuses? One day after conception a fetus is certainly a human being? I think not. Therein lies the rub, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-victory-for-fetus-rights/392436/115 "2007-02-17T20:36:58Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] No. All fetuses? One day after conception a fetus is certainly a human being? I think not. Therein lies the rub, I suppose. [/QUOTE] Not to be pedantic, but the day after conception, he is both a being and human. Ain’t an ostrich or a fruit fly or a toaster. And he “is.” Genetically human, and certainly a being. Again, I suspect you mean some concept like “personhood,” but a fetus is a human being. Just is. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-victory-for-fetus-rights/392436/116 "2007-02-17T20:38:45Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] What status do you assign a person who has temporarily lost all brain function, a flat-liner who will regain his consciousness? This is a rare but actual circumstance, occurring, for example, in cases of severe hypothermia. While in the state where he has no brain activity–none whatsoever–is this entity just a large blob of tissue, without any right to live? [/QUOTE] The brain structures/data that make him/her a person are still there; just shut down. A fetus lacks those, as does someone who’s brain dead. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-victory-for-fetus-rights/392436/117 "2007-02-17T20:44:03Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] The brain structures/data that make him/her a person are still there; just shut down. A fetus lacks those, as does someone who’s brain dead. [/QUOTE] So, then, a being needn’t currently possess brain function to be afforded rights? You retract your assertion that this being isn’t a person? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-victory-for-fetus-rights/392436/118 "2007-02-17T21:05:25Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] Not to be pedantic, but the day after conception, he is both a being and human. Ain’t an ostrich or a fruit fly or a toaster. And he “is.” Genetically human, and certainly a being. Again, I suspect you mean some concept like “personhood,” but a fetus is a human being. Just is. [/QUOTE] He is a potential human being. He isn’t a human being. Just isn’t. Fruit flies and toasters and ostriches have nothing to do with it. I don’t think that “personhood” is what I mean, but I am open to persuasion. I have never really thought about what “personhood” is, so you may be right. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-victory-for-fetus-rights/392436/119 "2007-02-17T21:06:20Z")
I take it, then, the issue of fetal death certificates is indeed secondary to the issue of abortion? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-victory-for-fetus-rights/392436/120 "2007-02-17T21:24:58Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] So, then, a being needn’t currently possess brain function to be afforded rights? You retract your assertion that this being isn’t a person? [/QUOTE] I don’t understand your point. I never asserted that someone with a temporarily shut down brain isn’t a person; only someone who has suffered brain death, or lacks a brain capable of sustaining personhood, like a fetus. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-victory-for-fetus-rights/392436.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-victory-for-fetus-rights/392436.md?page=7)