# A vote for Brexit shouldn't be a vote for bigotry, but it is. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 20, 2016, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vote-for-brexit-shouldnt-be-a-vote-for-bigotry-but-it-is/757893 "2016-06-20T16:33:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vote-for-brexit-shouldnt-be-a-vote-for-bigotry-but-it-is/757893/81 "2016-06-24T00:47:07Z")
Preferring the company of someone with particular characteristics might be racist but that’s not what we are talking about. Imposing legal restrictions on the movement of individuals and offering unequal legal protections of other kinds based solely on characteristics like skin color, place of origin, or nominal membership in a religious group is simply unacceptable and indefensible in civilized society. It’s exactly the thing that should be given zero consideration. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vote-for-brexit-shouldnt-be-a-vote-for-bigotry-but-it-is/757893/82 "2016-06-24T05:00:14Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Oh yea; Islam is NOT A RACE. Most people who have a problem with the spread of Islam wouldn’t care less if the person were white or not. Do some? Yes, but every cause has people in it for the wrong reasons. Bigotry is just racism in another form. Call it what you like, it’s the EXACT equivalent of racism. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vote-for-brexit-shouldnt-be-a-vote-for-bigotry-but-it-is/757893/83 "2016-06-24T05:01:39Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > I think it’s less about brown skin, and more about Islamic beliefs. Are UK residents skittish over Indian Hindu immigrants? Yes? No? I honestly don’t know, I’m asking?. If not, they should be. I don’t know about you, but I think while you make a legitimate point, the UK would be better off with _both_ explicit religious and ethnic preferences in terms of who it allows to immigrate to its country. Not quotas set at zero, but preferences. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vote-for-brexit-shouldnt-be-a-vote-for-bigotry-but-it-is/757893/84 "2016-06-24T05:03:37Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > God forbid Britons should want Britain to remain British. That would be _racist_! Of course, it’s only white, Western nations who aren’t allowed to preserve their own, unique ethnocultural identities. No one is attacking Japan for not allowing in millions of Filipinos. +1000. Congrats to the UK on making the right decision last night, BTW. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vote-for-brexit-shouldnt-be-a-vote-for-bigotry-but-it-is/757893/85 "2016-06-24T05:22:11Z")
Yep. The EU is a broken, anti-democratic institution. They just got a major slap in the face. I’d hope that this is a catalyst for change, but we’re talking about continental Europe here. They’ll probably just fight another war. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vote-for-brexit-shouldnt-be-a-vote-for-bigotry-but-it-is/757893/86 "2016-06-24T05:47:43Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > God forbid Britons should want Britain to remain British. That would be _racist_! Of course, it’s only white, Western nations who aren’t allowed to preserve their own, unique ethnocultural identities. No one is attacking Japan for not allowing in millions of Filipinos. Moronic bullshit. Japan is pretty regularly criticized for being racist or xenophobic. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vote-for-brexit-shouldnt-be-a-vote-for-bigotry-but-it-is/757893/87 "2016-06-24T05:54:31Z")
They are, and it’s wrong. Japan is the one of the safest and most educated countries on Earth. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to keep the stupid out. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vote-for-brexit-shouldnt-be-a-vote-for-bigotry-but-it-is/757893/88 "2016-06-24T07:59:48Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > So if Switzerland refused 10 million German immigrants to keep Switzerland Swiss then that would be textbook racism? I don’t think you know what racism means. With your point of view all borders are to some degree racist. That’s absurd if the idea of nations is to mean anything. If the Swiss couldn’t handle the idea of the \*Germans \*being part of their ethnoculture, then they’d clearly be in the grip of a rabid and ludicrously extreme racial purity ideology. So yes. The US had open borders for much of its history. When did it become a nation? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vote-for-brexit-shouldnt-be-a-vote-for-bigotry-but-it-is/757893/89 "2016-06-24T08:08:32Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > They are, and it’s wrong. Japan is the one of the safest and most educated countries on Earth. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to keep the stupid out. Sure makes it easy to spend on education when you don’t have to spend on, say, defense, huh? Aha…immigrant = stupid now…interesting (?) point of view… ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vote-for-brexit-shouldnt-be-a-vote-for-bigotry-but-it-is/757893/90 "2016-06-24T08:17:46Z")
When I say “stupid” in this case, I mean the kind of stupid that brings problems mostly unfamiliar to Japan, such as littering, street crime, rudeness, etc. Japan is an island in more than just the literal sense. They are an island of 100 million civilized, educated people, surrounded by ruder, less educated people(and that includes us). They don’t need that shit. Racism is wrong in most cases, especially when judging individuals. But some groups are less educated than other groups, have more crime than other groups, and don’t share the same values as other groups(that’s why it’s called culture). All nations have the right to maintain their basic character. In the US, we like disruptive change and we don’t mind a little chaos. That kind of thing would be death to the Japanese. They don’t reproduce fast enough, they’ve become very pacifistic since the war, and they are not equipped to handle the kinds of societal problems we have here in the US and that most other countries have. Introducing mass immigration to Japan would literally destroy Japan in a generation. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vote-for-brexit-shouldnt-be-a-vote-for-bigotry-but-it-is/757893/91 "2016-06-24T08:31:34Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > Here are, in my view, the consequences of a Leave vote: > > 1. Far-right groups such as Britain First, the English Defence League, LibertyGP, and the English Democrats will believe that their ideas have widespread support. It is their rhetoric of “I want my country back” and foreigners coming for jobs, benefits and the NHS that mainstream politicians have been aping in this campaign, they will have a point. [It begins](https://twitter.com/A_M_Russell/status/746239578042818560): > [@BNP](#): > > Let’s not forget that the #BNP have been campaigning to leave the EU since we were formed in 1982. Well done to everyone. Job done (That’s a link to my tweet quoting it, to save people linking to the BNP) That’s the British National Party, an explicitly racist far-right organisation who many thought had collapsed. But they’re feeling punchy this morning. Britain First also have an opinion about what this result means for them: Broken link as you might not want this on your history: [http://ww](http://ww) [w.britainfirst.org/we-did-it-britain-votes-to-leave-the-eu/](http://w.britainfirst.org/we-did-it-britain-votes-to-leave-the-eu/) > [@](#): > > Britain First played a key role in this battle – over the last few weeks we achieved tens of millions of hits on images, news stories and videos on our vast online campaigns machine. > > God bless everyone who voted for this historic victory. > > Today, we can truly congratulate ourselves on a monumental victory over the enemies of our country. > > They dismissed our own worth, they launched a barrage of scare-mongering and lies at us, but we ignored their poison and chose instead to make Britain a free, sovereign and mighty nation once again. > > We may have won a battle, but the war is still raging. > > Now UKIP has served its purpose, Britain First can surge forward and tackle the issues of immigration and Islamification. But I’m sure everything will be fine, and that Gove and Johnson can dismount this tiger without any difficulty. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vote-for-brexit-shouldnt-be-a-vote-for-bigotry-but-it-is/757893/92 "2016-06-24T08:56:44Z")
Proud to be English today. We reclaimed the right to make our own laws without outside interference. Would Americans be content to surrender any part of their independence in such a way? (And, no, US states ceding part of their powers to a federal government is not the same. These were English colonies banding together, same language, same culture, same people. The EU contains a host of differing people, cultures and languages. Brussels is not the equivalent of Washington and the United States of Europe would not be akin to the United States of America.) ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vote-for-brexit-shouldnt-be-a-vote-for-bigotry-but-it-is/757893/93 "2016-06-24T09:13:10Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > So because Britain colonized other countries in the past, it now has a moral obligation to surrender its own identity and let anyone in the world who wants to come live there do so? If those other countries didn’t want the British showing up on their doorstep, was that _racist_ of them? Firstly, go back and read what I wrote. Did I use the word “racist”? No I didn’t, because it’s inaccurate. Your attempt at pedantry fails. Secondly, what the British did wasn’t “immigration”, it was “conquest” which is not what immigrants are doing to the UK so your attempt at false equivalence also fails. Thirdly, allowing reasonable levels of immigration (which is not the same thing as “letting anyone in the world who wants to come live there do so”) does not require the UK to “surrender its identity” unless you define national identity in a very narrow manner. But please - continue to respond to points I didn’t make with arguments that don’t apply. You’re doing great. > [@](#): > > Talk about a “quick, look over there” blatant attempt at distraction. It’s _racist_ for British people to oppose nonwhite immigration because now they have spicy food and exotic music? \ Once again, that’s not remotely what I said. But if you’re opposing immigrants on the basis of race then yes, that’s pretty much racist by definition. > [@](#): > > Well, at least you’re consistent. I guess it’s _racist_ for any people to prefer the company of others like them and not want to associate with foreigners. That’s hardly reassuring. Racist? No. Pathetic, xenophobic and sad? Yes. I pity people like that. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vote-for-brexit-shouldnt-be-a-vote-for-bigotry-but-it-is/757893/94 "2016-06-24T09:18:37Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Wow. No matter the English speaking country, if one wants to have a legitimate border, one is automatically a racist. Can’t the no border camp come up with a legitimate argument at some point? Well…jingoist. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vote-for-brexit-shouldnt-be-a-vote-for-bigotry-but-it-is/757893/95 "2016-06-24T09:50:57Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > While ripping off anyone’s clothing is something beyond the decency of anyone, the niqab and the hijab are un-British, and yes, un-American. In the US, [43% of Muslim women wear the hijab or niqab](http://www.npr.org/2011/04/21/135523680/lifting-the-veil-muslim-women-explain-their-choice) in non-Mosque occasions. (In Britain, there’s no reason to believe that number is lower.) However, only [10% of American Jews](http://www.pewforum.org/2015/08/26/a-portrait-of-american-orthodox-jews/) are Orthodox of any sort, and 6% Hassidic. Why can’t more Muslims get with the program? Barely any Indians in Britain (or America) wear the traditional dress outside of Indian themed parties. I’m sorry - I wasn’t aware countries had a uniform dress code. I look forward to your complaints about the refusal of the Amish to use zippers. And what’s with black kids and those baggy trousers? But that’s all irrelevant to the point I made, which was that Muslims are more likely to be the victims than the perpetrators of violence. I’m gratified that you have at least agreed that this is worthy of condemnation, even though you immediately placed some blame on the victims for wearing those clothes in the first place. > [@](#): > > the difference tho is that Jews, West Indians, and South Asians didn’t have large amounts of people who supported any equivalent to violent jihad, didn’t try to have anti-blasphemy laws made to elevate them, and did not, in large number, believe in violence towards women, gays, etc. Go do some reading on what people believed about Jews pre-WWII. The rhetoric we get now about “terrorists hiding amidst the Muslim immigrant population” almost precisely reflect the previous “anarchists hiding amidst the Jewish immigrant population” rhetoric of the 1930s and earlier. And that’s not even getting into the whole “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” and “blood libel” and everything else people said about Jews. Also, West Indians (most notably Jamaicans) have been notorious for homophobic attitudes and violence, and the views of South Asians on women have not traditionally been any more enlightened that that of Muslims. These things have changed and continue to change _now_, but that’s in part due to their assimilation into British and global culture. Concerns about immigrants, real or imagined, are a constant. Confirmation bias works against efforts to measure and address real concerns and dismiss false ones. And for someone who often complains about societal discrimination against his demographic, you’re awfully eager to discriminate against other entire demographics based on the behaviors of a minority of their members. > [@](#): > > Also, as mentioned above, why do Muslims assimilate far less than other groups? Quite apart from the fact that this isn’t true, it seems odd to suggest that the response to a lack of swift assimilation is to put up more barriers to assimilation. > [@](#): > > Oh yea; Islam is NOT A RACE. Most people who have a problem with the spread of Islam wouldn’t care less if the person were white or not. Do some? Yes, but every cause has people in it for the wrong reasons. If you want to argue that people incorrectly use “racism” when they mean “sectarianism” or “bigotry”, I’m right there with you. If you want to argue that sectarianism or other forms of bigotry are somehow more justifiable than racism specifically, then I’m afraid we’ll have to agree to differ. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vote-for-brexit-shouldnt-be-a-vote-for-bigotry-but-it-is/757893/96 "2016-06-24T10:00:07Z")
It’s wrong to penalize entire peoples for the crimes of a few, but it’s also stupid to ignore differences between groups. I’m a Jew and I know very well that Communism and anarchism were much more popular among the Jewish community than among gentiles, and even today Jews are more likely to be socialistic than gentiles. Discussing politics at my synagogue is not easy, being one of the few libertarian/conservatives. About all we agree on is Israel. Likewise, you’re going to see more violent fundamentalism among Muslim communities than in other communities. Not here in the US, but certainly in Europe and definitely in the Middle East. That does not mean we penalize Muslims, but it does mean that we recognize what is actually going on so that we can address the root causes. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vote-for-brexit-shouldnt-be-a-vote-for-bigotry-but-it-is/757893/97 "2016-06-24T10:23:40Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Likewise, you’re going to see more violent fundamentalism among Muslim communities than in other communities. Not here in the US, but certainly in Europe and definitely in the Middle East. That does not mean we penalize Muslims, but it does mean that we recognize what is actually going on so that we can address the root causes. Wait a second - I agree with all that. How is this possible? ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vote-for-brexit-shouldnt-be-a-vote-for-bigotry-but-it-is/757893/98 "2016-06-24T15:26:51Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It’s wrong to penalize entire peoples for the crimes of a few, but it’s also stupid to ignore differences between groups. I’m a Jew and I know very well that Communism and anarchism were much more popular among the Jewish community than among gentiles, and even today Jews are more likely to be socialistic than gentiles. Discussing politics at my synagogue is not easy, being one of the few libertarian/conservatives. About all we agree on is Israel. > > Likewise, you’re going to see more violent fundamentalism among Muslim communities than in other communities. Not here in the US, but certainly in Europe and definitely in the Middle East. That does not mean we penalize Muslims, but it does mean that we recognize what is actually going on so that we can address the root causes. It is not easy for a certain type of liberal to acknowledge any group differences. It’s not true that Islamic beliefs are just as benign a background faith for a population compared to christianity/buddhism/hinduism/atheism. Toss Islam into the mix, you are going to get more antagonism towards other groups. You are going to get more calls for state ties to religion, partly because that is built into the doctrine. This does not hold for all or even most muslims, most muslims are actually FAR better than their religious doctrines would make them as people if they followed them to the letter. But for those that are not better, falling back to Islam for guidance is like a spark landing in a pool of gasoline vs a pool of water like a belief system like Jainism would create. But you can’t say that, there is a liberal fetish and idiocy over equality of religion that has ZERO merit. Religious beliefs are a collection of ideas, and no idea should be presumed to be just as valid or beneficial as another. I do not care if it is believed by minorities, or poorer people. Ideas should NEVER be graded on a curve. It’s bad enough having to absorb waves of migrants, but that alone would not have tilted the scales in the UK I don’t think. In the US most people want a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants. But Islam on TOP of a large chunk of the migrants carries a stench precisely because of the associated additional problems with its adherents. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vote-for-brexit-shouldnt-be-a-vote-for-bigotry-but-it-is/757893/99 "2016-06-24T15:39:29Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Sure makes it easy to spend on education when you don’t have to spend on, say, defense, huh? What makes you say Japan doesn’t spend on defense? In raw numbers they are 8th in the world and their 1% of GDP is similar to many NATO countries. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vote-for-brexit-shouldnt-be-a-vote-for-bigotry-but-it-is/757893/100 "2016-06-24T19:12:33Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > What makes you say Japan doesn’t spend on defense? In raw numbers they are 8th in the world and their 1% of GDP is similar to many NATO countries. And 3.86% of their GDP on education (2012), which is actually down from about 5.75% in 1980. Aside from that, looking at the latest military spending is ignoring the fact that the US took responsibility for defense post-WWII and for decades afterwards. Education spending is for the long-term, not just today. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vote-for-brexit-shouldnt-be-a-vote-for-bigotry-but-it-is/757893.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vote-for-brexit-shouldnt-be-a-vote-for-bigotry-but-it-is/757893.md?page=6)