# "a" vs "an" before an initialism (e.g. SDMB). Which is correct? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 26, 2020, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vs-an-before-an-initialism-e-g-sdmb-which-is-correct/928925 "2020-12-26T01:39:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2020, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vs-an-before-an-initialism-e-g-sdmb-which-is-correct/928925/82 "2020-12-30T14:33:52Z")
Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2020, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vs-an-before-an-initialism-e-g-sdmb-which-is-correct/928925/83 "2020-12-30T14:37:06Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > There’s probably a strategic rather than linguistic reason for this. I would think that the usage of “Lego” as a noun carries a greater risk of it becoming genericised, by applying that noun to any interlocking toy bricks, not just those of the Lego brand. This was our conclusion as well. The background was that a student wrote about his “Legos” toys for a speech contest. It got changed to “Logo” by an British teacher and then back to “Legos” by an American teacher. British English treats that toy as a mass noun while American English treats it as a count noun. There wasn’t any way to satisfy all the teachers so our suggestion was to have a speech about fire trucks ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2020, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vs-an-before-an-initialism-e-g-sdmb-which-is-correct/928925/84 "2020-12-31T16:16:46Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > I’m not a native speaker, but I agree that “Montreal English School Board” sounds much more natural (it would be the same in my native German). The only point I could see for “English Montreal School Board” would be if “Montreal School Board” had already been a set phrase before the introduction of the English aspect into it. Suppose the Montreal School Board has been in existence for a long time, and people routinely refer to it - possibly even to “the MSB” in abbreviation, and to stay in line with the topic of this thread, someone sitting on the MSB would be “an MSB member”. Suppose that now, after a long and established existence of the MSB, it is decided to split its responsibilities among two new boards, one in charge of English schools and one in charge of French schools. Then I could see why people would start speaking of “the English MSB”, or, spelt out, “the English Montreal School Board”. But if you were to set up such a body from scratch, it would feel much more natural to call it the Montreal English School Board. I think that’s a fair analysis, but I’ll just add that the hypothetical here isn’t actually the case. There is no “MSB”; there are in fact nine school boards in the Greater Montreal area. So I think we’re back to the two possible reasons for the odd name that were previously hypothesized: either English illiteracy, or a deliberate intent to emphasize the “English” part of the name as the dominant attribute. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2020, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vs-an-before-an-initialism-e-g-sdmb-which-is-correct/928925/85 "2020-12-31T16:32:27Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > British English treats that toy as a mass noun while American English treats it as a count noun. So would a British parent say “Dammit, Graham, don’t leave your Lego all over the floor”? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2020, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vs-an-before-an-initialism-e-g-sdmb-which-is-correct/928925/86 "2020-12-31T18:24:59Z")
I’m not British, but I’m fairly certain that is correct for UK English. I’ve never heard my British friends say “Legos.” Only “Lego.” Or perhaps “Lego bricks.” ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2020, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vs-an-before-an-initialism-e-g-sdmb-which-is-correct/928925/87 "2020-12-31T22:56:38Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > So would a British parent say “Dammit, Graham, don’t leave your Lego all over the floor” From what I remember, yes, although there that have been the word “bloody hell” thrown in there somewhere. It absolutely drive us American teachers nuts but when we corrected it then our British colleagues went batty. British English uses “sport” similarly. You can see that on the BBC news site. Because grammar generally is unconsciously absorbed rather than learned, outrage is higher when confronted when “wrong” usage. Yet, the entire arguments from both sides could be simply boiled down it “I’m right ‘cuz this is how it is.” One school used textbooks claiming to be American English, yet produced in the UK. They would occasionally fail to correct British English usage such as “playing football at the weekend.” Then there was a story about an NBA game with a final score of 25 to 15 . . . ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2020, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vs-an-before-an-initialism-e-g-sdmb-which-is-correct/928925/88 "2020-12-31T23:03:06Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > British English uses “sport” similarly. Ah, yes, Britain: land with a single sport but multiple maths. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2020, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vs-an-before-an-initialism-e-g-sdmb-which-is-correct/928925/89 "2020-12-31T23:56:59Z")
I wonder if their Barbies said “Maths are hard”? ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2021, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vs-an-before-an-initialism-e-g-sdmb-which-is-correct/928925/90 "2021-01-01T05:43:58Z")
Here is an example from a British textbook: > [@](#): > > Q1:Football matches are often played at the weekend, but no matches are being played next weekend. > > Why is second sentence present continuous passive? It would be interesting to see which was the original usage and which deviated from it. And yes, sometimes the students were confused by being taught two different dialects, not even counting all the different accents. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vs-an-before-an-initialism-e-g-sdmb-which-is-correct/928925/91 "2021-01-03T00:30:40Z")
The difference between _French_ teacher and French _teacher_ is taught explicitly in EFL (English as a Foreign Language). The former is a compound noun - it’s comprised of an adjective plus a noun, but it functions as one noun - and the latter is a noun plus an adjective. In compound nouns you stress the first word, but if it’s merely an adjective attached to a noun, you stress the noun. My favourite example is hot dog. It might not be a widely known rule, or whatever word you want to substitute for rule, but it certainly can be articulated. Compound nouns vs noun+adjective, basically. Tokyo Bayer, if the student specifically wrote about “his Legos toys” then it’s not really a British vs American difference. Lego there is being used as an adjective, and you don’t pluralise adjectives. Like you can have multiple Barbies, but you have multiple Barbie dolls, not Barbies dolls. If you’re just paraphrasing what he said, then the stuff made by the company called Lego is uncountable in British English, and countable in US English, so you’d defer to whichever country the writer was in. Same with every other difference between British English and US English. Or just say that it really doesn’t matter. It does slightly grate on me when I read or hear Americans referring to Legos, but that’s my problem - I wouldn’t say they’re actually getting it _wrong_. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vs-an-before-an-initialism-e-g-sdmb-which-is-correct/928925/92 "2021-01-03T01:05:22Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > The difference between _French_ teacher and French _teacher_ is taught explicitly in EFL (English as a Foreign Language). The former is a compound noun - it’s comprised of an adjective plus a noun, but it functions as one noun - and the latter is a noun plus an adjective. In compound nouns you stress the first word, but if it’s merely an adjective attached to a noun, you stress the noun. My favourite example is hot dog. James McWhorter talks about this issue in his podcasts - he notes that in television programs from the early 1970s, people talked about going out for Chinese _food_ which sounds a little odd, since today we go out for _Chinese_ food. This (I suspect) is a part of the evolution of language, since its easy to drop an unstressed word from a phrase, leading to people going out for “Chinese.” ---
**Author:** ![omenran](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omenran/32/3318_2.png) [@omenran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/omenran)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vs-an-before-an-initialism-e-g-sdmb-which-is-correct/928925/93 "2021-01-03T10:04:35Z")
I just listened to that episode a couple weeks ago.If anyone else wants to listen it’s the Lexicon Valley episode about the Backshift. (I’m not that far into the podcast, so I still think of it being Mike Garfield and Bob Vollo as the hosts) ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vs-an-before-an-initialism-e-g-sdmb-which-is-correct/928925/94 "2021-01-03T13:08:05Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > If you’re just paraphrasing what he said, then the stuff made by the company called Lego is uncountable in British English, and countable in US English, so you’d defer to whichever country the writer was in. Same with every other difference between British English and US English. Or just say that it really doesn’t matter. > > It does slightly grate on me when I read or hear Americans referring to Legos, but that’s my problem - I wouldn’t say they’re actually getting it _wrong_ . It was paraphrased, as the actual sentences were such things as: “I left my Lego” all over the floor. As the student was Taiwanese who didn’t know the difference, the discussion was among the English teachers, some were native American English speakers and some were native British English speakers. The problem was that this was for a county speech contest and the school invests a lot of time coaching the students as it’s a form of advertising for the school. This particular school’s students usually win the contest so parents are more eager to spend the money for the tuition as it’s a private school. One would think that it should have been easily solved but it went on forever. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vs-an-before-an-initialism-e-g-sdmb-which-is-correct/928925/95 "2021-01-03T13:24:48Z")
I’ve heard him use that example in “Great Courses” lectures as well. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2021, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vs-an-before-an-initialism-e-g-sdmb-which-is-correct/928925/96 "2021-01-04T16:08:33Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > One would think that it should have been easily solved but it went on forever. I think it’ll be solved in another 50 years when both American English and British English (plus all the Commonwealth variants) will be subsumed under English as (mis-)spoken by Chinese. Not that Mandarin will stop being the language of mainland China, or Taiwanese be spoken on Taiwan, but once a lot of ESL English is spoken in both places, and there’s enough cross-immigration with the English speaking world, all the dialects of English worldwide will take on “Chinese characteristics” in the famous phrase. Much like the many, many space-faring SF stories that assume by 2100 or so all the off-Earth colonies are speaking “Russlish”. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2021, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vs-an-before-an-initialism-e-g-sdmb-which-is-correct/928925/97 "2021-01-04T23:58:09Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Q1:Football matches are often played at the weekend, but no matches are being played next weekend. > > Why is second sentence present continuous passive? This makes me relieved that it’s not necessary to know what the present continuous passive is in order to use it. Somehow kids absorb all these complicated interacting rules without ever having to think about them. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > I think it’ll be solved in another 50 years when both American English and British English (plus all the Commonwealth variants) will be subsumed under English as (mis-)spoken by Chinese. Which version would a native Mandarin speaker naturally prefer? But I’m not sure you’re correct. India will soon overtake China in population and English is already quite widely spoken there. India’s likely to have a lot more influence on the language in future. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2021, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vs-an-before-an-initialism-e-g-sdmb-which-is-correct/928925/98 "2021-01-05T00:50:01Z")
I have no idea which variant of English a Mandarin speaker would prefer. At least at first it’ll have a lot to do with, ref @TokyoBayer, how many more or fewer ESL teachers in China & Taiwan hail from the USA vs the rest of the non-Indian Commonwealth. If/When we get to the point that Chinese kids learn their Chinglish from their parents, the difference may be largely moot. As to India vs China: Very good point; thank you. Could very well be either. Or both. Certainly India is in the pole position today, but the simple fact of China’s enormous headcount means they _might_ take over at any time. Politics notwithstanding. If the Indians do the needful they can hold the field for a few more decades at least. Be it India or be it China the point remains that the historically white historically English-only speaking countries are about to lose control of their planetary _lingua franca_ to culturally and ethnically very different countries who now use English as a second language and will probably continue to do so for a couple centuries yet. The rate of change in our language will accelerate. In the famous telling English steals vocabulary in dark alleys. In future (good usage) it’ll be more like English being first assaulted then impregnated in dark alleys. The shoe of language innovation is being transferred to a new and very different foot. Gonna be fun. The doctrinaire prescriptivists will be apoplectic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-vs-an-before-an-initialism-e-g-sdmb-which-is-correct/928925.md?page=4)