# "A War We Just Might Win" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2007, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-war-we-just-might-win/413749 "2007-07-31T00:32:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2007, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-war-we-just-might-win/413749/221 "2007-08-04T18:50:49Z")
gonzomax, you’re wrong again. [General Petraeus rebuts Iraq row claim](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/07/30/wiraq230.xml) > [@](#): > > Reports that the Shia Muslim Iraqi leadership opposes the strategy have circulated in Baghdad. The government is said to fear the policy is a backdoor route to arming Sunnis fighting Shia militias for territory. > > Col Boylan said **Mr Maliki had embraced the policy but dissidents were trying to throw “sand in the gearbox” with claims the two were at loggerheads.** You’ll note that your second cite clarifies that the original claim came from ‘a Sadrist lawmaker’. THEY are the ones opposed to the policy. It looks to me like disinformation swallowed whole by a reporter and repeated as fact. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2007, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-war-we-just-might-win/413749/222 "2007-08-04T19:11:53Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] It looks to me like disinformation swallowed whole by a reporter and repeated as fact. [/QUOTE] At least you’ve gotten back to the topic of your OP. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2007, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-war-we-just-might-win/413749/223 "2007-08-05T01:23:23Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] gonzomax, you’re wrong again. [General Petraeus rebuts Iraq row claim](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/07/30/wiraq230.xml) You’ll note that your second cite clarifies that the original claim came from ‘a Sadrist lawmaker’. THEY are the ones opposed to the policy. It looks to me like disinformation swallowed whole by a reporter and repeated as fact. [/QUOTE] Actually he was very clear and repeated it. But once the real government straightened him out ,he rescinded. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2007, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-war-we-just-might-win/413749/224 "2007-08-05T01:31:48Z")
[http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/07/ap\_petraeusmaliki\_070727/](http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/07/ap_petraeusmaliki_070727/) Here’s corroboration through other sources. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2007, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-war-we-just-might-win/413749/225 "2007-08-05T01:49:21Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] At least you’ve gotten back to the topic of your OP. [/QUOTE] And in the cold light of dawn… [http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/02/washington/02assess.html?\_r=2&hp=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1186027555-JC9ioUuJAoxuiAVTkIzGng&oref=slogin&oref=slogin](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/02/washington/02assess.html?_r=2&hp=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1186027555-JC9ioUuJAoxuiAVTkIzGng&oref=slogin&oref=slogin) > [@](#): > > …In an interview on Wednesday, Mr. O’Hanlon said the article was intended to point out that the security situation was currently far better than it was in 2006. What the American military cannot solve, he said, are problems caused by the inability of Iraqis to forge political solutions. “Ultimately, politics trumps all else,” Mr. O’Hanlon said. “If the political stalemate goes on, even if the military progress continued, I don’t see how I could write another Op-Ed saying the same thing.” ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2007, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-war-we-just-might-win/413749/226 "2007-08-05T02:22:07Z")
[Link](http://www.570news.com/news/international/article.jsp?content=w080439A): > [@](#): > > BAGHDAD (AP) - Iraq’s electricity grid could collapse any day because of insurgent sabotage, rising demand, fuel shortages and provincial officials who are unplugging local power stations from the national system, electricity officials said on Saturday. > > U.S. President George W. Bush, meanwhile, was busy on the phone, calling Vice-president Adel Abdel-Mahdi and President Jalal Talabani, urging political unity in the country, where the government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki is under a stiff challenge. Ah, the dysfunctionality of our leadership. :rolleyes: Maybe Bush should go over there and talk to the locals, and explain to _them_ why things have to be as they are: > [@](#): > > For many Iraqi citizens, however, trying to stay cool or find sufficient drinking water was a more urgent problem. The Baghdad water supply already has been severely affected by power blackouts and cuts that have affected pumping and filtration stations. > > And now water mains have gone dry in the Shiite holy city of Karbala, where the whole province south of Baghdad has been without power for three days. Power supplies in Baghdad have been sporadic all summer and now are down to just a few hours a day, if that. > > “We no longer need to watch television documentaries about the stone age. We are actually living in it. We are in constant danger because of the filthy water and rotten food we are having,” said Hazim Obeid, who sells clothing at a stall in the Karbala market. And: > [@](#): > > Al-Shimari said the electricity shortages now were the worst since the summer of 2003, shortly after the U.S.-led invasion to topple Saddam. > > “And what makes Baghdad the worst place in the country is that most of the lines leading into the capital have been destroyed. That is compounded by the fact that Baghdad has limited generating capacity.” > > He said that there are 17 high-tension lines running into Baghdad but only two were operational. The rest had been sabotaged. > > “When we fix a line, the insurgents attack it the next day,” al-Shimari said. > > In Karbala, provincial spokesman Ghalib al-Daami said a 50 megawatt power station there was shut down for lack of fuel and the whole province had been without water and electricity for past three days. > > He said almost half the provincial capital had sewage seeping above ground because pump trucks to clean septic tanks were unable to operate for lack of gasoline. The health threat to citizens was also contaminating crops in the region. > > Many people who normally would rely on small home generators can’t afford to buy fuel. Gasoline has shot up putting the fuel out of range for all but the wealthy. Yeah, we’re winning. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2007, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-war-we-just-might-win/413749/227 "2007-08-05T03:07:50Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] [http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/07/ap\_petraeusmaliki\_070727/](http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/07/ap_petraeusmaliki_070727/) Here’s corroboration through other sources. [/QUOTE] Nothing in that link shows al-Maliki backing down from or reversing a position under pressure from the U.S. Several exchanges of anger are recorded along with some remarks that probably occurred in a morning after moment of “Yeesh! What have I said?” However none of them indicated any pressure or direction from the White House or Petraeus. (I do appreciate, however, how difficult it must have been for you to cite a military newspaper–even if it still did not support your claim.) ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2007, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-war-we-just-might-win/413749/228 "2007-08-05T03:43:32Z")
Did you think we would report it as such. We are trying to pretend that the Iraqis are running their government. Would we report we are forcing them to do our bidding. When he turned a 180 in 2 days that indicated a change. I give you the cause. It is a logical conclusion. Do you suppose we would have a story with Bush saying. I straightened out Maliki. He was not following orders very well.? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2007, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-war-we-just-might-win/413749/229 "2007-08-05T04:10:32Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] I give you the cause. It is a logical conclusion. [/QUOTE] No. Given your particular world view, you offer a “cause” that seems to make sense to you, regardless of evidence. Given that you have provided no evidence of your claim, (aside from an appeal to your world view), I am not persuaded. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2007, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-war-we-just-might-win/413749/230 "2007-08-05T19:32:05Z")
[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/07/28/wirq128.xml](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/07/28/wirq128.xml) Would you define this as mis speaking. ? This article shows an ongoing conflict. PS not a liberal site. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2007, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-war-we-just-might-win/413749/231 "2007-08-05T21:05:03Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] [tollbit-host.com](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/07/28/wirq128.xml) Would you define this as mis speaking. ? This article shows an ongoing conflict. PS not a liberal site. [/QUOTE] So, you have changed your argument? No one has denied conflict between al Maliki and the U.S. administration. Your initial claim was that he was a mere puppet who would reverse himself on whatever whim originated from Washington. Nothing you have presented supports that original claim. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2007, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-war-we-just-might-win/413749/232 "2007-08-05T21:41:40Z")
He talked to Bush . He changed. He is a puppet. "A Family in Iraq: "Baghdad Burning’, two Iraqi blogs by articulate Iraqis refer to the government as a puppet government and Maliki as Bush’s puppet. Iraqis see him as a puppet. They also call what is happening as an occupation. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2007, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-war-we-just-might-win/413749/233 "2007-08-05T23:04:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Iraqis see him as a puppet. They also call what is happening as an occupation. As long as the U.S. sits in the country, some Iraqis will see anyone in power as U.S. puppets. That is most particularly true of the followers of al Sadr (whom al Maliki is trying ro placate). I see it as an occupation, as well, but I recognize that it is not the same level of occupation as the one we enforced on Japan. If you need to see him as a puppet despite the lack of evidence, there will apparently be no changing youir mind. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-war-we-just-might-win/413749/234 "2007-08-06T00:06:08Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] He talked to Bush . He changed. He is a puppet. "A Family in Iraq: "Baghdad Burning’, two Iraqi blogs by articulate Iraqis refer to the government as a puppet government and Maliki as Bush’s puppet. Iraqis see him as a puppet. They also call what is happening as an occupation. [/QUOTE] Well hell, if two Iraqi bloggers said it, it’s _got_ to be true. :rolleyes: While I agree with you that Maliki is pretty much our puppet (and I don’t think the fact that he’s got a certain amount of latitude to shout, stamp his feet, and even occasionally act in ways displeasing to us over non-earthshaking stuff disproves this), the case you’re making for it is pretty lousy. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-war-we-just-might-win/413749/235 "2007-08-06T00:43:18Z")
Come on guys. There is no war to be won. What there is is an internal security breakdown that we are trying to police. Our policing is for the purpose of allowing the Iraqis to form a nation. So far that has been a failure and the prospects fon’t look good. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-war-we-just-might-win/413749/236 "2007-08-06T02:08:04Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s trickier in a country where there’s an AK-47 in every home. Stepping back a bit, is this accurate? I have to imagine that ol’ Saddam wasn’t encouraging NRA memberships. His style of rule worked better with a lightly armed population. Even with missing military weapons and smuggled arms, how many assault rifles is the average Iraqi going to have acquired in the last four years? ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-war-we-just-might-win/413749/237 "2007-08-06T02:12:39Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] Stepping back a bit, is this accurate? I have to imagine that ol’ Saddam wasn’t encouraging NRA memberships. His style of rule worked better with a lightly armed population. Even with missing military weapons and smuggled arms, how many assault rifles is the average Iraqi going to have acquired in the last four years? [/QUOTE] Well, given that we kind of failed to protect the armories when we took over . . . ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-war-we-just-might-win/413749/238 "2007-08-06T02:30:07Z")
Read this article in the \* New York Review of Books \*: **Iraq: The Way to Go** by Peter Galbraith. I’m not sure if he is a longstanding vocal critic of the war, or even is he possesses the much coveted Certificate of Critical Thinking, but this particular insight rather struck me… > [@](#): > > …The Iraq war is lost. Of course, neither the President nor the war’s intellectual architects are prepared to admit this. Nonetheless, the specter of defeat shapes their thinking in telling ways. The case for the war is no longer defined by the benefits of winning—a stable Iraq, democracy on the march in the Middle East, the collapse of the evil Iranian and Syrian regimes—but by the consequences of defeat. As President Bush put it, “The consequences of failure in Iraq would be death and destruction in the Middle East and here in America.”… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-war-we-just-might-win/413749/239 "2007-08-06T03:35:22Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] Come on guys. There is no war to be won. What there is is an internal security breakdown that we are trying to police. Our policing is for the purpose of allowing the Iraqis to form a nation. [/QUOTE] No, it’s not a “security breakdown”, it’s an internal conflict for power and revenge, and the struggle to drive out a foreign conquerer. Our purpose there is to grind them down and make them submit to us, and to punish them for being Iraqi. [QUOTE=Little Nemo] Stepping back a bit, is this accurate? I have to imagine that ol’ Saddam wasn’t encouraging NRA memberships. His style of rule worked better with a lightly armed population. [/QUOTE] Why ? Only in the NRA’s fantasys do AK-47s and such help against a tyrannical ruler. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-war-we-just-might-win/413749/240 "2007-08-06T03:41:06Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] No, it’s not a “security breakdown”, it’s an internal conflict for power and revenge, and the struggle to drive out a foreign conquerer. Our purpose there is to grind them down and make them submit to use, and to punish them for being Iraqi. [/quote] I think the difference between us is mainly semantics. > [@](#): > > Why ? Only in the NRA’s fantasys do AK-47s and such help against a tyrannical ruler. Yes indeed. People don’t seem to grasp the simple fact that most of the soldiers killed were armed to the teeth. If it didn’t turn out so seriously on occasion, being armed for defense would be a bad joke. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-war-we-just-might-win/413749.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-war-we-just-might-win/413749.md?page=13)