# A "What the fuck?" to TheWhoToTheWhatNow **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 25, 2011, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125 "2011-05-25T06:44:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Sierra\_Indigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@Sierra\_Indigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sierra_Indigo)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/202 "2011-05-30T02:04:41Z")
> [@margin](#): > > It’s nice to know you’re just as much of a goddamned fucking moron as all these other assholes. > > We don’t talk about rape. That would require assholes like you to FUCKING SHUT UP AND LISTEN. All you assholes do is go on about dark alleys and how the cocktease asked for it. But if actually read anything you’d know that filling page after page with 'she asked for it and if you complain about it you’re…Let me see: > > Crazy bitch, stupid bitch, shrill bitter bitch, sanctimonious bitch, blah blah. The POINT YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE is that while TWTTWN was singled out, there’s lots and lots more examples of guys who justfied rape and positively exalted in describing how much the bitch asked for it, but _your_ not concerned with that. You’re concerned with how you can’t make page after page of moronic, puerile jokes that were old and boring and then kind of disgusting after one page. > > And those rape threads you talk about? The ones where guys say it’s not rape because I say so and the bitched asked for it and the bitch shouldn’t walked down that dark alley------that’s not talking about rape, you fucking moron. And you just used every sexist cliche in the book, too, you dickwad, so go and troll somebody else. If you dare to differ with the assholes on this board who want to blame the victim----and TWTTWN is by far not hte only one-----apparently you have to go along with the guys otherwise you guys just _love_ to whip out the sexism. It’s funny how that’s okay in the Pit but racism is not. > > Yours is the ignorance that needs fighting. Sounds like someone just needs a good, hard dicking. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/203 "2011-05-30T02:19:17Z")
> [@Sierra\_Indigo](#): > > Sounds like someone just needs a good, hard dicking. **margin** frequently annoys the shit out of me, it’s true, but you’re far more contemptible than her in this instance. Yeah, you’re joking, yeah, you’re ironic, you still suck. [edit: comments on your suckitude specifically limited to this one post–I have no opinion otherwise] ---
**Author:** ![starwarsfreek42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@starwarsfreek42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/starwarsfreek42)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/204 "2011-05-30T02:25:57Z")
Well I, for one, would welcome a good hard dicking and the overlords who wish to provide it. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/205 "2011-05-30T02:28:59Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > \ > > Or is this another case where a poster feels compelled to announce that dropping babies into an industrial paper shredder is _just wrong_, and damn the repercussions for saying so? I’m going to need the scenario a little more fleshed-out - so, what was the baby doing? ---
**Author:** ![Sierra\_Indigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@Sierra\_Indigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sierra_Indigo)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/206 "2011-05-30T02:29:24Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I’m going to need the scenario a little more fleshed-out - so, what was the baby doing? The baby was the next Hitler - WHAT NOW? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/207 "2011-05-30T02:43:33Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Umm… seriously not following you. Another go? … That ain’t you, right? So your dog… where is he in this fight? So, apparently we’re supposed to be keeping track of the idiot with the reprehensible position, just so you have someone to feel superior to? Seriously, what is with some people? > [@Sierra\_Indigo](#): > > Sounds like someone just needs a good, hard dicking. I’m not the world’s biggest margin fan by any stretch, but LHoD’s right–that’s crossing a line into being totally unacceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/208 "2011-05-31T16:23:06Z")
> [@margin](#): > > And no gradations between black and white are allowed. > > For example: > > Some poster whose name I won’t go get: > > > [@](#): > > > > I agree with this much. When I speak of “rape,” I’m only ever speaking of situations in which one person has said “stop” (or anything equivalent) and the other has not stopped. > > Because no situation has ever arisen where a victim might not be able to say something. Nope. That was me, and the whole post in question is [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13802626&postcount=181). I am startled to see _anything_ that I’ve written cited amongst quotes from **TheWhoToTheWhatNow** and **Acid Lamp** , who I had joined you, **margin** , in castigating. The post in question was doing just that. I haven’t read every rape thread exhaustively, but my impression had been that I was among the posters (particularly the men) with the _least_ tolerance for _any_ justifications, rationalizations, or excuses for rape. Now, possibly my choice of the word “said” there wasn’t ideal; it could have been “expressed,” or “shown,” or something. But if you are somehow defining _“rape”_ to include circumstances in which someone was conscious, physically compliant, _and_ not verbalizing dissent, then I think it’s actually you that are providing the after-the-fact excuse for rapists: how could they tell? The only standard I’m aware of that could make that distinction would be something akin to the [Antioch College Sexual Offense Prevention Policy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antioch_College#The_Sexual_Offense_Prevention_Policy) of 1993, which ostensibly required that “every new level of sexual behavior” be announced in advance, with independent consent sought and received, in both directions, before it was undertaken. (“Can I kiss you?” “Yes. Can I touch your ass?” “Yes. Can I touch yours?” “Yes.”) I happen to have been at Antioch during the period leading up to that policy’s adoption, knew some of the people involved, and knew many there afterwards. I never talked to anyone who claimed to follow it to the letter, or who believed that anyone did; the “best” defense of it was along the lines of, “well, yeah, everybody knows that _taken literally_ it would be silly, would kill any romantic moment, but nobody’s going to invoke it unless they really have been raped.” Is that the kind of standard you think everybody should be operating under all the time, **margin**? Or have I misunderstood something here? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/209 "2011-05-31T16:53:22Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > But if you are somehow defining _“rape”_ to include circumstances in which someone was conscious, physically compliant, _and_ not verbalizing dissent, then I think it’s actually you that are providing the after-the-fact excuse for rapists: how could they tell? While one could make a case that there are circumstances whereby continuous consent for the same/similar acts can be assumed once an initial “yes” is delivered (thus bypassing the **Antioch College** “problem” of requiring repeated reaffirmations of ongoing consent–and note, I think it’s unwise in the extreme to progress to dissimilar acts (from kissing to sexual touching, or from there to fluid exchange, or from there to penetration) without gaining new positive affirmations of consent), the fact of the matter is that physical compliance can be either “yes, keep doing that”, or “oh god, maybe if I don’t fight he won’t get mad and hurt me”, and _you can’t reliably tell the difference_. This scenario is the whole reason for the “yes means yes” movement, hat tip to \*\*margin \*\*for making me aware of it a few threads back. “no means no” only serves to stop abuse that’s already started, in the worst case. If you don’t have positive consent, you have to take into account that she MIGHT be only complying because of fear (justified, reasonable, or not) and “congrats”, sir, you’re a rapist and you didn’t even realize it. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/210 "2011-05-31T17:50:59Z")
Hmm, well, point taken, to some extent. Still, the idea that _verbal_ consent to each “progress” should be mandatory seems pretty unrealistic. Plenty of people just aren’t very verbal in this area, and IMO rightly feel more comfortably expressive in action. For example, I don’t think I’ve ever been with someone who didn’t actively, _physically_ advance the situation herself at some point, without _my_ express verbal consent. Which is not to say that I’m passive (though I have been told a time or two that I was slow to “make a move”). Okay, what if instead of “physically compliant” I said “physically cooperative,” or “actively participating”? Can I (and she) be reasonably assured of not being a rapist then? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/211 "2011-05-31T18:00:32Z")
Also, it strikes me that under the “fear” theory, positive verbal consent might be coerced as much as physical compliance. “Oh god, maybe if I _say yes_ he won’t get mad and hurt me.” “No means no” might be incomplete, but “yes means yes” isn’t unassailable either. I think I’d rather have a silent–but smiling and active–partner, than one that merely _says_ “yes.” ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/212 "2011-05-31T18:23:37Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Also, it strikes me that under the “fear” theory, positive verbal consent might be coerced as much as physical compliance. “Oh god, maybe if I _say yes_ he won’t get mad and hurt me.” > > “No means no” might be incomplete, but “yes means yes” isn’t unassailable either. I think I’d rather have a silent–but smiling and active–partner, than one that merely _says_ “yes.” Ideally you’d have both. In your first scenario, the balance of probabilities is that someone expressly asking for consent is doing so because they WANT to take no for an answer if the answer is no–someone who’s going to rape isn’t going to waste the words attempting to coerce a “yes, you may do this”. Besides, as is often the case, the “yes means yes” movement is aimed at the guys who DON’T want to be rapists, but who may be inadvertently physically or otherwise coercive. Getting affirmative positive consent at every major step is a way to insulate them from committing a heinous crime they have no intention of actually committing. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/213 "2011-05-31T23:28:12Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I see ‘rapecakes’ as an affectionate name for a female friend, like ‘babycakes’. “How you doing, Rapecakes?” > [@Smeghead](#): > > Sort of a “friend with involuntary benefits”… I can’t tell you how much I love you for this quip, **Smeghead**. Literally can’t tell you - there are strict anti-stalking laws in this state… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/214 "2011-05-31T23:29:29Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > **margin’s** totally extreme viewpoints, coupled with almost ubiquitous misrepresentation of what people say (it’s easier to mock someone if you claim they’re saying something stupid than if you admit to what they’re actually saying) leads to a lot of posts that look like victim blaming. If she’d stop being quite such an extremist about the issue, people would stop arguing with her. That would just need to look something like this: > > “Look, of course there are things women can do to lessen their risk of a small subcategory of rapes, but those things are obvious and most women already do them, and anyway we need to be working toward a society in which women don’t need to do such things. And of course if women could avoid dating skeezy guys they’d lower their risk of date rape, but there’s no magical formula that lets you know which are the skeezy guys in advance. Granted both of these things–can we move on to discussing how to educate and socialize men so that we minimize the chance of people BECOMING rapists? This is the best way to fight this awful evil.” > > But she won’t grant even the minor concessions above, and it comes across as totally crazy not to grant them. So people (read: me) argue with her because we have a hard time believing anyone’s unwilling to admit them. And she responds by making sweeping statements about guys and men, and when she’s called on her bullshit, she angrily tosses it back: she’s only talking about SOME men, not ALL men. And then she goes right back to making the generalizations. > > In short, **margin** , your tone, your dishonesty, and your viciousness do nothing to reduce rapes. If you’re actually interested in doing some good here, adopt the sort of civil tone in GD that can actually be persuasive, and consider what folks say honestly instead of jumping to false conclusions about stupid things that tangentially resemble what they actually said. YOu lying sack of shit. You want to bitch and bitch and fucking bitch about something YOU YOURSELF ADMITTED WAS 10% of rapes, if that. Hey, let’s not focus on the assholes like the dude who said I needed a good dicking. He was joking? Yeah, sure. That’s his response to any uppity bitch that dares to disagre with him. Your ‘advice’ is stupid, useless, and patronizing. And you refuse to concede that, and on top of it you think you’re one of the good guys. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/215 "2011-05-31T23:40:27Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > This could have been phrased less acidly but it’s apt. I mean, hell, the majority is (well, was, before the jokes started) savaging \*\*TWTTWN \*\*in this thread. > > The majority was slamming on every idiot who tried to argue for ANYTHING regarding slutty posting, including slamming the idiotic views of **Acid Lamp** that \*\*margin \*\*quotes upthread. > > I don’t think I’ve ever seen a discussion regarding any kind of sexual assault on the dope where **margin** ’s viewpoint was in anything but the vast majority. > > Hat tip to **Sleeps with Butterflies** for the implied judgement on the basis of looks, too. That’s ALWAYS classy. You know, when the majority of guys here don’t get defensive when their stupid, patronizing ‘avoiding rape’ tips are rejected for being stupid, then you can get all pissy about a woman getting sarcastic with a total asshole. The guys who give this shitty advice, in addition to comparing women to rolexes and other objects, don’t listen when women inform them, OVER AND OVER AND OVER that they’re dealing in fantasyland. Most rapists commit rape in houses. But the majority of people here on the Dope don’t think that what they’re doing is victim blaming when they offer their helpful little tips. And they don’t listen when you tell them for the zillionth time that they’re blaming the victim and aren’t working from the kind of rapes that actually happen. And that asshole up above who said I needed a good dicking sure is chastened, isn’t he? Why, I’m sure he learned his lesson. Bottom line is, you refuse to listen, you think you’re right, and your fighting back against sexist assholes is limp, inadequate, lacks any force, any real conviction, and leaves the asshole in qustion free to be a sexist jerk to any other woman who gets uppity. [Did half the town Rape this girl? - Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=600049) I really love how the guys in that thread dismissed educating men as 'but parents already tell their kids not to rape, STFU bitch, what else can we do?" Well, telling a woman she needs a good dicking is not part of it. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/216 "2011-05-31T23:46:56Z")
> [@Sierra\_Indigo](#): > > Sounds like someone just needs a good, hard dicking. And as for you, you’re a sexist jerkwad who needs a taste of his own medicine. I can’t say what I really think of you, but you’re the reason Rape Culture exists, guys like you are why women get raped and don’t report,and guys like you dominate the culture here on the Dope. Sounds like somebody needs a good bobbiting. I’m sure you’re even more charming in real life, and the women around you who have been raped, and the one or two rapists that are part of any large group consider you their buddy, their cheerleader, their alibi. ``` I hope you get everything you wished on me. I hope you get treated the way you've treated me. Anybody who passes by that comment that you made without condemning it is just as bad as you ``` \*\*\* This\*\*\* is what the straight dope is: “Sounds like somebody needs a good hard dicking.” Notice there’s no consent in that statement. Just grab her and dick her. This is what you are. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/217 "2011-05-31T23:49:46Z")
I’m in agreement with the fact that a lot of guys–on the Dope and elsewhere–don’t get it/take rape seriously/etc. And the “dicking” comment was dismissive, sure, but to blame “rape culture” (which I personally don’t really believe exists, but that’s neither here nor there) and actual rapes on **Sierra Indigo** is…a mite insane. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/218 "2011-05-31T23:56:15Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I’m in agreement with the fact that a lot of guys–on the Dope and elsewhere–don’t get it/take rape seriously/etc. And the “dicking” comment was dismissive, sure, but to blame “rape culture” (which I personally don’t really believe exists, but that’s neither here nor there) and actual rapes on **Sierra Indigo** is…a mite insane. Where do you think rape culture comes from? From guys making jokes about it, from guys clinging to their fantasy rape scenario where the victim is a cocktease, from guys who don’t get upset at any of that. What they get upset is when somebody points out that actual rapes don’t fit their scenario. Actual rapes? Show me where I did that. I seem to have omitted a when in the sentence “Guys like you are why when women get raped they don’t report,” but of course I’m a crazy cunt bitch who needs a good hard dicking to fix me. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/219 "2011-05-31T23:57:29Z")
> [@margin](#): > > Hey, let’s not focus on the assholes like the dude who said I needed a good dicking. Aside from the fact that LHoD (and I) both called her out on it, I’m pretty sure Sierra Indigo is a woman. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/220 "2011-05-31T23:57:43Z")
> [@margin](#): > > And as for you, you’re a sexist jerkwad who needs a taste of his own medicine. I can’t say what I really think of you, but you’re the reason Rape Culture exists, guys like you are why women get raped and don’t report,and guys like you dominate the culture here on the Dope. Sounds like somebody needs a good bobbiting. I’m sure you’re even more charming in real life, and the women around you who have been raped, and the one or two rapists that are part of any large group consider you their buddy, their cheerleader, their alibi. > > ``` > I hope you get everything you wished on me. I hope you get treated the way you've treated me. Anybody who passes by that comment that you made without condemning it is just as bad as you > > ``` > > \*\*\* This\*\*\* is what the straight dope is: “Sounds like somebody needs a good hard dicking.” > > Notice there’s no consent in that statement. Just grab her and dick her. This is what you are. > [@](#): > > guys like you are why women get raped and don’t report Should be: guys like you are why WHEN women get raped they don’t report." ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/221 "2011-05-31T23:59:25Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Aside from the fact that LHoD (and I) both called her out on it, I’m pretty sure Sierra Indigo is a woman. If it’s a she, it’s even worse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125.md?page=12)