# A "What the fuck?" to TheWhoToTheWhatNow **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 25, 2011, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125 "2011-05-25T06:44:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/242 "2011-06-01T04:00:28Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Just like pancakes. Hur hur dur. Wow, she really showed us humorless feminazis how superior and sensitive men are. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/243 "2011-06-01T05:14:03Z")
> [@margin](#): > > Except for where, apparently, the victims’ parents weren’t responsible enough This is objectively true–an 11-yr-old was outside of their supervision. > [@](#): > > and the rapists’ parents woke up one day, magically, with rapists for sons. How did that happen? The difference in culpability between the parents of an 18-yr-old regarding that 18-yr-old’s actions and the parents of an 11-yr-old regarding that 11-yr-old’s unsupervised whereabouts is profound. I have already answered your question’s thrust, anyway. > [@Zeriel](#): > > People that let rape-enabling attitudes and behaviors that correlate with a propensity to rape are also culpable to a lesser extent for rapes that are committed by the persons whose behavior they let slide. As for this bullshit? > [@](#): > > And when are you going to answer my questions? They’re stacking up. Why don’t you list any questions I haven’t answered? I believe my statements have covered every remotely relevant thing you’ve said thus far. I answered every question in post 230 with my post 231, and I’m of the opinion that your questions in post 230 cover essentially all of your contributions thus far to the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/244 "2011-06-01T10:14:44Z")
> [@margin](#): > > Except where I offered links. You might want to get that selective memory of yours checked. You offered **stupid** links. Just like you did here, attempting to argue that, because some other idiot objects to having her obnoxiousness pointed out, pointing out your obnoxiousness is a fallacy. I never told you you were being unladylike; I said you were being hateful. Plenty of ladies are hateful. > [@](#): > > Let me respond to your sexism and sheer hatred, sexism, and lies with some invective of my own: You’re lying to yourself when you think you’re a decent guy. Guess what, asshole? Blaming the victim and the parents and the skirt length is not feminist. You think “I’m not blaming the victim BUT” makes you a fine, upstanding guy, just the way you think obsessing over 10% of rape cases is sensible. You’re not kidding anybody except yourself and the other rapist apologists who over-run this board. Once again, you’re fabricating everything. You’re a damned idiot, and I won’t waste more time with you. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/245 "2011-06-01T10:33:04Z")
Question for **margin** : \*\*How does one educate one’s sons to not become rapists? \*\* The way I see it, is that most men, in fact the _overwhelming_ majority of men, do not rape or otherwise sexually assault women. In that other minority are men who might be ‘opportunistic’ rapists, and those who we might classify as pathological criminals…those who actively seek women specifically to assault them. Now let’s exclude the latter group, because I’m sure even **their** parents would be horrified to learn of their crimes. I do not believe you can universally hold parents to account for those who turn out sick and twisted (although in some instances, I suspect that really crappy parenting _might_ nurture such deviance, but that’s a whole n’other topic). So let’s deal with the first group: those who just don’t take NO for an answer. Assuming that parents teach their kids basic respect for other people\*\*, that we do unto others as we would wish them to do unto us, that we don’t steal from others or otherwise harm them because it’s just not good, what extra lessons are we not teaching our sons that then gives them permission to rape? Should I be telling my hypothetical three year old that he shouldn’t go sticking his dick into someone who says no? When should this ‘anti-rape’ education start? Will it be included in the kindergarten curriculum? :rolleyes: Y’see, the default position for parents is that we believe our children are going to be the best people that they can be and are going to know what’s right and what’s wrong by the time they get to (grabs age out of air) say 15 years old. And by extension, men who rape ARE GOING TO KNOW THAT THEY ARE DOING THE WRONG THING, so it’s not like educating them about it’s wrongness is going to make one iota of difference. So, **margin** , what’s your solution again? :rolleyes: \*\*Yes, an assumption, but I do believe that even the most dysfunctional of parents do indeed want their kids to turn out OK, and try (however impotently) to inculcate basic values into their offspring. Unfortunately kids tend to mimic the behaviours of parents rather than the more formal lessons imparted. However, I do not believe that all, or even the majority of crappy families, breed rapists. If that were so, then we would be seeing a veritable epidemic of rape, and this is certainly not borne out in any current statistics that I am aware of anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/246 "2011-06-01T10:51:58Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > \*\*How does one educate one’s sons to not become rapists? \*\* Perhaps the raging lunatic in the thread isn’t the best one to answer that question? Because it’s actually a decent question. I think in school, sex ed ought to include significant information about consent and about sexual assault. Everyone, boys and girls, ought to know the circumstances under which a person can consent to sexual activity, and about the circumstances under which a person cannot, and about the consequences (legal, emotional, practical) of initiating or continuing sexual activity in the face of nonconsent. A lot of rape is acquaintance rape, where the rapist doesn’t actually consider the act to be rape: it’s just being a forceful dude, or it’s completing a transaction that the victim agreed to when she went out on a date, or it’s a harmless joke played on an unconscious victim, or whatever. Educating potential rapists about the exact parameters of consent and about the consequences for stepping over that line won’t end rape, but it might go a ways toward decreasing its frequency. There’s also events. I think I mentioned earlier a walk against sexual violence in my town recently, and the all-male Little League team that marched. That was awesome. Get kids used to the idea that consent is good long before it’s an issue in their lives. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/247 "2011-06-01T11:56:15Z")
But my point remains **LHOD** , is that most men do not rape women, even under the acquaintance-rape auspice. Which means that the message is _already_ getting across to the vast majority who have enough empathic nous to understand that no actually means no. I fail to understand how a formal _education_ program will enlighten those who missed that earlier developmental milestone. IOW, whilst I applaud as much info getting to kids via the sex-ed programs, including when it is and isn’t ok to be screwing, I seriously doubt that for our casual rapist it is going to have much of an effect on its frequency. Because our casual rapist does not consider himself to be a rapist at all, as you mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![gallows\_fodder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8c91f0/32.png) [@gallows\_fodder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gallows_fodder)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/248 "2011-06-01T12:23:34Z")
You teach your kids not to rape the same way you teach your kids not to steal. You teach them early on to respect others’ bodies and personal space, you teach them not to touch others without permission, and you teach them empathy. These are lessons that can be taught both in the home and in the classroom. I worked at an elementary school that included this kind of thing in their curriculum starting at kindergarten (designed to teach kids to tell someone if they were being sexually abused) along with anger management and social skills lessons. Just make it part of growing up – you have to learn to share and not to just take someone’s stuff without permission…that goes for touching them without permission, too. This may seem painfully obvious to you, but clearly many kids never learn these lessons, so somebody’s failing to teach them. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/249 "2011-06-01T12:51:37Z")
> [@gallows\_fodder](#): > > You teach your kids not to rape the same way you teach your kids not to steal. You teach them early on to respect others’ bodies and personal space, you teach them not to touch others without permission, and you teach them empathy. These are lessons that can be taught both in the home and in the classroom. I worked at an elementary school that included this kind of thing in their curriculum starting at kindergarten (designed to teach kids to tell someone if they were being sexually abused) along with anger management and social skills lessons. Just make it part of growing up – you have to learn to share and not to just take someone’s stuff without permission…that goes for touching them without permission, too. > > This may seem painfully obvious to you, but clearly many kids never learn these lessons, so somebody’s failing to teach them. No argument with your stuff here (except the last bit), but I’m still of the belief that parents DO teach their kids not to steal, to respect others’ boundaries and to be empathic. Actually, I do also believe this is the default state for human beings in general. But I’m not so sure that for the kids who do **not** learn these things that somebody has necessarily failed to teach them. Perhaps there’s something amiss in these kids that makes them incapable of displaying normal human empathy? Of course, that is no excuse for their behaviour, and therefore I also believe that these mores might need to be emphasised by force (via a court sentence). But to say that lessons are not learned because someone has failed to teach is a big stretch IMHO. YMMV etc ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/250 "2011-06-01T13:08:47Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > **margin** , much as you might think otherwise, you’re not one of the good people. You’re far too filled with hate and vitriol and far too willing to lash out at people with good intentions. You’re sanctimonious and doctrinaire in the worst way. There’s nobody who finds your views persuasive here (except for one person who interprets them in the blandest, rape=bad sense), but plenty of people who find your tone so obnoxious that it’s driving them away from reasonable feminist arguments. You’re the Critical Mass of rape prevention, so repellent that you’ll convince people to join the other side just out of spite. > > I know that such self-righteousness feels good, but that’s no excuse for indulging in it. LOL. Just LOL. Think about what you just said here, LHoD, once you’ve cooled down a bit and gotten over margin’s personal attacks on you a tad. Just think about what you’ve just said. ---
**Author:** ![Sierra\_Indigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@Sierra\_Indigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sierra_Indigo)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/251 "2011-06-01T13:20:29Z")
> [@margin](#): > > And as for you, you’re a sexist jerkwad who needs a taste of his own medicine. Oh you are a dumb fucking tart. Hint, rapecakes - Vagina, I has it. To get all srsbizness for a moment - you, margin, are part of the reason that women who fight against rape are not taken seriously. Why? Because you’re a sanctimonious, invective-filled, froth-generating TWUNT of the highest order. Nobody can have a discussion with or learn anything at all from you because you bodyslam into ANY thread with your shrill bleating about rape culture and ALL MEN ARE THE PROBLEM and IT’S ALL YOUR FAULT RAPE IS HAPPENING. It’s not a zero-sum game. People can make jokes about something as ludicrous as what was happening in this thread and still be seriously against rape and the idea of forcing anyone - male or female - into sexual acts against their will. You fuck the cause for the rest of us. Nobody needs your “help”. And elfkin, why quote? You’ll take all my fun away! If I was quoting, little red riding tard wouldn’t have had so much fun spitting invective-filled retardity at the man she thought I was. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/252 "2011-06-01T13:42:36Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > But I’m not so sure that for the kids who do **not** learn these things that somebody has necessarily failed to teach them. Perhaps there’s something amiss in these kids that makes them incapable of displaying normal human empathy? Peer pressure can undo a lot of teaching. And also, I think you’re giving parents too much credit about how they teach their kids in the first place. “Don’t rape because it’s wrong to hurt someone like that” is going to carry a different kind of weight in an impressionable mind than “If you rape, you could go to jail if you get caught”. The former teaches empathy, the latter just teaches someone to be careful in how they go about it. And that’s where the rapecakes come into the picture. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/253 "2011-06-01T13:42:48Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > The way I see it, is that most men, in fact the _overwhelming_ majority of men, do not rape or otherwise sexually assault women. In that other minority are men who might be ‘opportunistic’ rapists, and those who we might classify as pathological criminals…those who actively seek women specifically to assault them. I am under the impression, myself, that \*\*margin \*\*honestly believes the vast majority of men WOULD rape a woman if the opportunity to do so without being caught happened to present itself. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/254 "2011-06-01T13:50:05Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Peer pressure can undo a lot of teaching. And also, I think you’re giving parents too much credit about how they teach their kids in the first place. This bit is probably more true than many of us would like to admit, too. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/255 "2011-06-01T14:47:48Z")
> [@margin](#): > > Try this out for size: _Sounds like somebody needs a good,hard lynching._ > > Is that funny, too? Rush limbaugh made jokes like that about abu ghraib. I bet you liked those, too. Fascinating. You’re like an archer who not only completely misses the target each time, but somehow keeps landing arrows in the back of her own head. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/256 "2011-06-01T14:48:37Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Fascinating. You’re like an archer who not only completely misses the target each time, but somehow keeps landing arrows in the back of her own head. Now _that’s_ metal! ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/257 "2011-06-01T14:55:55Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > LOL. Just LOL. > > Think about what you just said here, LHoD, once you’ve cooled down a bit and gotten over margin’s personal attacks on you a tad. Just think about what you’ve just said. **LHoD** is right, though. I used to be anti-rape but now I see that if someone like **margin** is against it, I should be all for it. I’m also pro-lynching, but of course this whole board has a lynching culture so I feel right at home here. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/258 "2011-06-01T15:47:23Z")
> [@margin](#): > > Because that makes it okay. And no, I won’t give it up. Jokes about it just show I’m right. All it shows is that you haven’t seen the movie. Let me ask you a question: when an infamously shrill male poster here has people saying that maybe if he might be less uptight if he got laid now and then rather than continue to be an asshole and drive women away with his obnoxiousness, are the posters suggesting that someone should rape him? They are, right? All suggestions that someone might be more pleasant to be around if they weren’t sexually frustrated or suggestions that they have sex at all means that they ought to be raped. Just like in the movie where they suggest that the female character might be less of a bitch if she could get someone to date her long enough to sleep with her. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/259 "2011-06-01T16:32:19Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > **LHoD** is right, though. I used to be anti-rape but now I see that if someone like **margin** is against it, I should be all for it. > > I’m also pro-lynching, but of course this whole board has a lynching culture so I feel right at home here. That’s right, and don’t you forget it. {Swings rope menacingly} ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/260 "2011-06-01T18:08:43Z")
My confession: While the wife prefers that I not discuss our sex life I still feel compelled to say that I’ve given out a few “good, hard dickings” in my life and I’m pretty sure that she was not just OK with it but pretty much enthusiastic about the event. I didn’t have to apologize or make pancakes but I know that cuddling occurred afterwards. I’m also guilty of commenting that acquaintances could use a good hard (I used the word fuck). I’ve made that comment about people of either sex. Oddly, I wasn’t thinking of forced rape but more along the lines of willingness by both the subject and a person they participated with. I base that on my own experiences where rigorous sex has transformed me from being wound too tight to a pleasant mellow state of mind. I can understand that Margin may have assumed that rape was involved since that is the subject matter of this thread. Only **Sierra Indigo** knows for sure the context in which she spoke. So, in the spirit of the discussion - I think that **Margin** is too emotionally wound up from trying to support her debate position. I hope that she finds a way to achieve a mellow state of mind and not let this thread get her too angry. But I wouldn’t dare suggest any process that might get her from one state of mind to the next. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/261 "2011-06-01T18:13:01Z")
Yeah, [me neither](http://www.amazon.com/How-Good-bye-Depression-Constrict-Everyday/dp/0595094724). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125.md?page=14)