# A "What the fuck?" to TheWhoToTheWhatNow **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 25, 2011, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125 "2011-05-25T06:44:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/282 "2011-06-03T10:04:14Z")
> [@kimera](#): > > Note how much this ‘Patterns in acquaintance rape” strongly resembles the ‘kino’ escalation used by PUA: "Groth and Birnbaum reported a three-stage pattern in rapists’ behavior concerning acquaintance rapes. First a rapist will invade a woman’s personal space (for instance, by putting his hand on a woman’s knee in a public place). This is common in fraternity parties and in bars when the music is so loud the couple must be close to hear each other. > > If the woman does not object, the rapist proceeds to the second stage in which he will desensitize her to the intrusion by escalating the behavior (moving his hands to her buttocks, for example). It is unlikely that she will tell him that she is uncomfortable with his “roaming hands” but she may feel uneasy as a result of this behavior and suggest going someplace less crowded. She does not want her friends to see how forward he is being, and she does not want to stay close to him. He may misinterpret her suggestion as her way to be alone with him. The third stage is when they are in an isolated place and the rapist attacks." So are you saying it **is** difficult to ascertain consent? Maybe I don’t know what I’m talking about, but to me touching someone on the knee, and if the person seems to enjoy it, move on to a more intimate place, isn’t invading her personal space or “desensitiz[ing] her to the intrusion” (!) but merely flirting behaviour. (Not that I’d do it: I cannot flirt.) If the person is uncomfortable with the behaviour, I’d expect her to tell me to stop or at least show some discomfort. Not to suggest going somewhere less crowded, which I just do not know how to interpret in any other way than as a sexual advance. I don’t want to sound like I’m trivializing rape or claiming the victim had it coming, but I think **kimera** should precise her (?) thought, because I’m getting a bit confused. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/283 "2011-06-03T10:43:40Z")
Failing that, could we talk about pancakes again? I’m so hungry. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/284 "2011-06-03T10:51:40Z")
Do you really want to _talk_ about food when you’re hungry? That sounds like torture to me. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/285 "2011-06-03T10:57:31Z")
> [@kimera](#): > > Note how much this ‘Patterns in acquaintance rape” strongly resembles the ‘kino’ escalation used by PUA: "Groth and Birnbaum reported a three-stage pattern in rapists’ behavior concerning acquaintance rapes. First a rapist will invade a woman’s personal space (for instance, by putting his hand on a woman’s knee in a public place). This is common in fraternity parties and in bars when the music is so loud the couple must be close to hear each other. > > If the woman does not object, the rapist proceeds to the second stage in which he will desensitize her to the intrusion by escalating the behavior (moving his hands to her buttocks, for example). It is unlikely that she will tell him that she is uncomfortable with his “roaming hands” but she may feel uneasy as a result of this behavior and suggest going someplace less crowded. She does not want her friends to see how forward he is being, and she does not want to stay close to him. He may misinterpret her suggestion as her way to be alone with him. The third stage is when they are in an isolated place and the rapist attacks." > > I believe that the PUA culture definitely contributes to date rape in that it views women as conquests, encourages men to value their self-worth based on the number of sexual partners, perpetuates the idea that women “don’t know what they want”, and encourages men to constantly push women past their comfort zone. First, thanks for the links; very helpful! This is good information. Second, the patterns of acquaintance rapists are great to know, because knowing them, a potential victim can try to short-circuit them. It can give the potential victim the power to escape the wanna-be rapist. Some skeevy guy at the club is getting grabby? Don’t suggest moving somewhere more private; do something else instead, something that keeps you in public. Which is all I’m saying: there’s nothing special about rape that prevents it alone of all violent acts from having its risks mitigated. Once that’s established, we can move to the more interesting discussion: how do we raise kids such that rape doesn’t look like such an option? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/286 "2011-06-04T00:36:03Z")
> [@Autolycus](#): > > Failing that, could we talk about pancakes again? I’m so hungry. You want I should bump that thread about the IHOP offering discounts with church flyers? It was fairly heated and it mentioned pancakes. (No rape, though) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125/287 "2011-06-04T02:12:42Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Second, the patterns of acquaintance rapists are great to know, because knowing them, a potential victim can try to short-circuit them. Pre-emptive mea culpa (since the thread got bumped anyway): it’s even better to know this information so that we can point it out to proto-rapists and say, hey, asshole, you’re acting like a proto-rapist, knock it the fuck off. I shoulda said that originally. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-what-the-fuck-to-thewhotothewhatnow/583125.md?page=14)