# A "white washed" moment in history... **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 7, 2009, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-white-washed-moment-in-history/492244 "2009-04-07T12:31:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-white-washed-moment-in-history/492244/1 "2009-04-07T12:31:19Z")
I decide to title the thread in this way due to the [hassle that I](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10951295&postcount=71) (and [Belowjob2.0](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10947525&postcount=67)) got when it was claimed that western history tends to get “White washed” with “blacks” routinely being edited out. I personally believe that this happens less so in current times due to the civil rights movement and the western world’s own growing sensitivity and confrontation of racism and past racial norms. However, I have seen (and continue to do so) people (even on this very board) make anti-black/African claims or statements based on these historical ideas. My examples in the previous thread was a quote from **Lust4Life** [ > [@](#): > > A couple of thousand years B.C. people in the Orkney Islands at the north of Britain were building stone houses with inside restrooms with running water,Sub Saharan Africa never discovered the wheel, the plough,road building,irrigation,or a written language amongst other things. ]([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=9952117](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=9952117))Which I was then challenged to disprove. So, I’ve decide to delicate more of my posting time to these Afrocentric issues. Today, I just read an interesting news article linked from a favourite [popular science blog](http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/) of mine. The story is about how during WW2, around two-thirds of Free French forces were made up of Black Africans from France’s various colonies; but that’s not everything… [ > [@](#): > > By the time France fell in June 1940, 17,000 of its black, mainly West African colonial troops, known as the Tirailleurs Senegalais, lay dead. > > Many of them were simply shot where they stood soon after surrendering to German troops who often regarded them as sub-human savages. ]([BBC NEWS | Europe | Paris liberation made 'whites only'](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7984436.stm)) Brutal, eh? However that was not all of it…[ > [@](#): > > The leader of the Free French forces, Charles de Gaulle, made it clear that he wanted his Frenchmen to lead the liberation of Paris. Allied High Command agreed, but only on one condition: De Gaulle’s division must not contain any black soldiers. > > In January 1944 Eisenhower’s Chief of Staff, Major General Walter Bedell Smith, was to write in a memo stamped, “confidential”: “It is more desirable that the division mentioned above consist of white personnel.” (snip) > > A document written by the British General, Frederick Morgan, to Allied Supreme Command stated: "It is unfortunate that the only French formation that is 100% white is an armoured division in Morocco. > > “Every other French division is only about 40% white. I have told Colonel de Chevene that his chances of getting what he wants will be vastly improved if he can produce a white infantry division.” > > Finding an all-white division that was available proved to be impossible due to the enormous contribution made to the French Army by West African conscripts. > > So, Allied Command insisted that all black soldiers be taken out and replaced by white ones from other units. > > When it became clear that there were not enough white soldiers to fill the gaps, soldiers from parts of North Africa and the Middle East were used instead. ]([BBC NEWS | Europe | Paris liberation made 'whites only'](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7984436.stm))[deep narrator voice]So this has been another “white washed” moment in history[/deep narrator voice] ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-white-washed-moment-in-history/492244/2 "2009-04-07T13:30:00Z")
I for one welcome our new Nazi overlords. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-white-washed-moment-in-history/492244/3 "2009-04-07T13:37:05Z")
I know it doesn’t make it right, but surely this has gone on throughout history? You praise your own ethnic / whatever group and subsume or politely ignore others at best. History is written by the victors. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-white-washed-moment-in-history/492244/4 "2009-04-07T13:50:15Z")
Not really. The _immediate_ history is written by the victors. Later histories are written by others. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-white-washed-moment-in-history/492244/5 "2009-04-07T14:00:16Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I know it doesn’t make it right, but surely this has gone on throughout history? You praise your own ethnic / whatever group and subsume or politely ignore others at best. I think this is accurate. Humans naturally give their allegiance to their own group, and regard others with suspicion and often hostility. An interesting question would be: where in history do we look for conspicuous examples of the inverse behavior - cases where “outsiders” were freely welcomed and treated as equals? There surely must be some, but the opposite seems vastly more common. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-white-washed-moment-in-history/492244/6 "2009-04-07T14:17:49Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > I think this is accurate. Humans naturally give their allegiance to their own group, and regard others with suspicion and often hostility. > > An interesting question would be: where in history do we look for conspicuous examples of the inverse behavior - cases where “outsiders” were freely welcomed and treated as equals? There surely must be some, but the opposite seems vastly more common. Well, my point in the other thread was that I believe history, as evidenced by popular culture, has been painted in an \*\*exceptionally \*\*anti-African/black slant (opposed to anti-China, anti-India, anti-Spanish, etc). That in western societies it was common to **exceptionally** portray “the blacks” (in their conceptual entirety) in a negative light. And while this (universally accepted) Zeitgeist has fallen out of favour in intellectual circles it continues to pop up in various places [1](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Trevor-Roper#Debates_on_African_history), [2](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/3473953/Poland-denies-Barack-Obama-cannibal-joke.html), [3](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Sarkozy#African_speech). ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-white-washed-moment-in-history/492244/7 "2009-04-07T14:41:12Z")
Well since American troops were the first into Paris and told to hold back and withdraw so the French could have a photo op the whole thing was bullshit anyway. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-white-washed-moment-in-history/492244/8 "2009-04-07T15:35:28Z")
Bah, that’s nothing. The whole thing was a PR stunt anyhow and we all wanted the pictures to show “real” Frenchmen, not colonial soldiers. If you really want some whitewash, check out the [Buffalo Soldiers](http://www.42explore2.com/bufldier.htm). These regiments did the heavy lifting in Cuba and the Phillipines at the turn of the century, not to mention the various western activities, and the white regiments, even the crappy ones, were glad to take the credit. The Spanish-American war was a huge potlitical move back in the day. How would it look if the heros were mostly black? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-white-washed-moment-in-history/492244/9 "2009-04-07T15:48:07Z")
I have never encountered any account of the nazis killing Black soldiers of any nationality as “subhumans.” I would very much like to have my ignorance fought through a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-white-washed-moment-in-history/492244/10 "2009-04-07T16:37:23Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Well, my point in the other thread was that I believe history, as evidenced by popular culture, has been painted in an \*\*exceptionally \*\*anti-African/black slant (opposed to anti-China, anti-India, anti-Spanish, etc). That in western societies it was common to **exceptionally** portray “the blacks” (in their conceptual entirety) in a negative light. I must disagree: firstly, it’s been long since accepted that Nubians (i.e. blacks) once ruled Egypt; secondly, the British, at the height of Empire looked down on everyone - Indians, Chinese, Africans, etc; thirdly, there is the racism prevalent today in Arabia and Malaya against Indians and Fillipinos. Then there’s the Japanese racism. And then there’s racism between various African tribes. And so on. I suspect you’re experiencing confirmation bias. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-white-washed-moment-in-history/492244/11 "2009-04-07T16:56:32Z")
I find this indefensible and will not vote for Eisenhower in the future. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-white-washed-moment-in-history/492244/12 "2009-04-07T16:59:44Z")
At the dedication in 1921 of the Lincoln Memorial, our national shrine to the issuer of the Emancipation Proclamation, seating was segregated. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-white-washed-moment-in-history/492244/13 "2009-04-07T20:28:22Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > At the dedication in 1921 of the Lincoln Memorial, our national shrine to the issuer of the Emancipation Proclamation, seating was segregated. Wasn’t most seating segregated in 1921? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-white-washed-moment-in-history/492244/14 "2009-04-07T21:29:53Z")
I’m sure that history continues to be “white washed” – just ask James Loewen (Read his books **Lies my Teavher Told Me** , **Lies Across America** , or his recent **Sundown Towns** , for a real eye-opener) I think he goes a little too far in his writings, but there’s undoubtedly a huge amount that’s been ignored and covered up through a combination of ignorance and someone’s agenda. Or read Howard Zinn’s books – especially the recent illustrated **a People’s History of American Empire** , which explicitly points out where the participation of blacks in, for instance, the Spanish-American War was “whitewashed”. As for the lack of development of Sub-saharan Africa – what about Mali and Timbuktu? The “knights” of Oubangi-Shari? The city of Zimbabwe? Nubia wasn’t exactly sub-Saharan, but one look at the statues and monuments (as in the collection at the Boston Museum of Fine Arts) will convince you that these people were physically “black” (much more so that the Egyptians), and had pretty damned high culture before 3000 B.C. How about the Benin Bronzes, or Nok iron? Those are sub-saharan, and pretty old. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-white-washed-moment-in-history/492244/15 "2009-04-07T22:38:30Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I’m sure that history continues to be “white washed” I quite agree: hate and idiocy abound. But history also continues to be washed with all other hues. Hate and idiocy aren’t confined to whites. **orcenio** is complaining about an **exceptionally** anti-black stance, and I just don’t see it. ---
**Author:** ![Damfino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Damfino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damfino)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-white-washed-moment-in-history/492244/16 "2009-04-10T19:25:52Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I have never encountered any account of the nazis killing Black soldiers of any nationality as “subhumans.” I would very much like to have my ignorance fought through a cite. Nor have I. However the OP’s quotes appeared originally verbatim in an article on the BBC website a few days ago, so I am inclined to give it credence. I can’t search the website now for some reason, but the title of the article was "Paris liberation made’whites only’ . " ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-white-washed-moment-in-history/492244/17 "2009-04-10T19:41:26Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Wasn’t most seating segregated in 1921? Depends - but in this case it was because the federal government and the District of Columbia had been vigorously resegregated by the Woodrow Wilson administration. You know, that progressive hero and father of the League of Nations. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-white-washed-moment-in-history/492244/18 "2009-04-11T08:54:11Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > An interesting question would be: where in history do we look for conspicuous examples of the inverse behavior - cases where “outsiders” were freely welcomed and treated as equals? There surely must be some, but the opposite seems vastly more common. Alexander the Great might be one example. He welcomed troops from conquered countries into his army, and he encouraged his soldier to marry native (Persian) women. I think that I read that toward the end, as he approached India, less than half of his soldiers were actually Greek or Macedonian. And the Roman Empire might be another example. They did a whole lot of ‘assimilation’ over the centuries. They tended to ‘merge’ the local religion into the official Roman religion, by finding some similarity between each local god and a Roman god, and then declaring them to be the same god: for example, saying Zeus was the Greek name for Jupiter. Local holidays were acknowledged & celebrated by the Roman government. The Roman Governor of a Province often took on the title used by the previous local ruler. And the ruling elites were fit into the Roman provincial government somehow. A couple of examples, since it’s Easter time: Pontius Pilate honored the Jewish Passover holidays by offering to release a prisoner (Barbabas was chosen). And the Jewish Chief Priests & Elders were a semi-official part of the government: they consulted with Pilate, and they had authority to have Jesus arrested, but not put to death. ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-white-washed-moment-in-history/492244/19 "2009-04-11T10:47:54Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I have never encountered any account of the nazis killing Black soldiers of any nationality as “subhumans.” I would very much like to have my ignorance fought through a cite. This [photograph](http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/media_ph.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005479&MediaId=2435) shows Nazi propoganda depicting Blacks along with Jews (and Arabs and Mongols) as inferior (bastard) races. A couple of other images linked to on that page illustrate similar attitudes. The [Wikipedia page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Blacks_in_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Holocaust)lists the persecutions that blacks suffered under the Nazis, but says “However, there was no systematic program for their elimination as there was for Jews and other groups.” Not quite what you were after, but not unimaginable given the prevailing attitude… Grim