# A woman I know spent two hours in hospital today for a non-serious issue. The bill: $12000 **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 3, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-woman-i-know-spent-two-hours-in-hospital-today-for-a-non-serious-issue-the-bill-12000/541836 "2010-06-03T21:10:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-woman-i-know-spent-two-hours-in-hospital-today-for-a-non-serious-issue-the-bill-12000/541836/81 "2010-06-09T17:43:05Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > European will chime in about how UNBELIEVABLE it is that Americans have to pay for hospital care in 3..2..1… This is completely of topic of the initial OP, but well since jtgain brought it up and the thread seams to go this way now… The healthcare system in the US is one of the best; the care can also be one of the best… But only if you can afford it. There is certainly some of the best How-Know around, but it is also one of the cruellest around in the western world, due to the money driven system. An Ambulance for the most part of Europe have besides the driver, professionally trained staff onboard, not just some random person driving the ambulance. Most of the time an actually ER doctor is driving with them or is in a separate car. Talking about Helicopters, Airlift info from Germany, which should give you some idea about the whole thing: > **[Emergency medical services in Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_medical_services_in_Germany)** > > Emergency Medical Service (German: "Rettungsdienst", lit. "Rescue Service") in Germany is a service of public pre-hospital emergency healthcare, including ambulance service, provided by individual German cities and counties. It is primarily financed by the German public health insurance system. > The development of ambulance services in Germany started in the late 19th century. Typically volunteer aid organizations, some private companies in larger cities and so called rescue corps provided ambul... of, cos…this is all 3…2…1… FREE to the citizens of Germany , just to rub it in a bit more… jt seams to be a bit bitter about it. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-woman-i-know-spent-two-hours-in-hospital-today-for-a-non-serious-issue-the-bill-12000/541836/82 "2010-06-09T19:53:44Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Actually, all the ERs I’ve seen in the last 5 years do have exactly that. A “menu” that’s on the wall by the desk where you check in, with the uninsured out of pocket expense of the most common procedures performed there. > > I like it. > > They shouldn’t. It’s part of the Patient Bill of Rights that cost be considered and explained when choosing your course of treatment, if you ask. Refuse any treatment and they’ll find the numbers quickly enough. > > Nurses are the one to ask about this, by the way. In my experience, hospital docs have no idea what the medications or tests cost. The nurse knows where to call to look it up. > > At one recent hospital experience, I had to insist the doctor prescribe a different antibiotic, after the first one cost over $280. The perfectly effective second choice was $24. The nurse helped me call pharmacies to get their prices for both rounds of phone calls, but she had a general idea of “this one will be cheaper than that one” before we made any calls. I don’t know where you are **whynot** , but this is completely inconsistent with my experience in California. I’ve never seen costs posted, most nurses I work with don’t know much about prices and are not encouraged to learn, when I went to my boss with a concern I was sternly told that it’s none of my business what the hosp charges. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-woman-i-know-spent-two-hours-in-hospital-today-for-a-non-serious-issue-the-bill-12000/541836/83 "2010-06-09T22:04:22Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > I don’t know where you are **whynot** , but this is completely inconsistent with my experience in California. I’ve never seen costs posted, most nurses I work with don’t know much about prices and are not encouraged to learn, when I went to my boss with a concern I was sternly told that it’s none of my business what the hosp charges. I’m a nursing student in Chicago. My post was based on five hospital ERs as a patient (well, family member of a patient) in the last fiveish years and two hospitals as a student during clinicals in the last year. I hope California sees the light soon. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-woman-i-know-spent-two-hours-in-hospital-today-for-a-non-serious-issue-the-bill-12000/541836/84 "2010-06-09T22:19:56Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > This is completely of topic of the initial OP, but well since jtgain brought it up and the thread seams to go this way now… > The healthcare system in the US is one of the best; the care can also be one of the best… But only if you can afford it. > There is certainly some of the best How-Know around, but it is also one of the cruellest around in the western world, due to the money driven system. > An Ambulance for the most part of Europe have besides the driver, professionally trained staff onboard, not just some random person driving the ambulance. Most of the time an actually ER doctor is driving with them or is in a separate car. > Talking about Helicopters, Airlift info from Germany, which should give you some idea about the whole thing: > [Emergency medical services in Germany - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_medical_services_in_Germany) > of, cos…this is all 3…2…1… FREE to the citizens of Germany , just to rub it in a bit more… jt seams to be a bit bitter about it. Just in case you were being serious, of course it’s not free to the citizens of Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-woman-i-know-spent-two-hours-in-hospital-today-for-a-non-serious-issue-the-bill-12000/541836/85 "2010-06-10T09:23:41Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > Just in case you were being serious, of course it’s not free to the citizens of Germany. Free- maybe not entirely. NO. The German Health-Insurance Tax (Krankenkasse) is quiet expensive. While I used to live in Germany it was completely free, now it might be a bit different (I’m refering to the Ambulance). In case of emergencies (car accidents, sickness etc…) the bill for transportation is usually paid by the Krankenkasse – still, no extra bill for it, I don’t think, they would get away with it. However, there are cases, where people do get charged, if they want it for transportation of a patient with a broken leg and a simple taxi would have done the job or if they called for it themselves. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-woman-i-know-spent-two-hours-in-hospital-today-for-a-non-serious-issue-the-bill-12000/541836/86 "2010-06-10T13:15:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Tell that to Princes Diana. She would have been airlifted to a hospital (as would the poorest person in the US) with all the necessary medical equipment. The US has a cost containment problem, not a medical treatment problem. Just to clarify this. The length of time it took to get Princess Diana to hospital had nothing to do with either cost or whether it was a socialised medical system. As others have pointed out, in 1997 (don’t know what happens now) French practice was for a physician to attend each accident in the specialist ambulance. The physician then attempted to stabilise the patient before transportation to hospital. This is very different from US practice where the ambulance is manned by a paramedic and will attempt to get the casualty to the hospital trauma room as quickly as possible. Now, there can be arguments about which is the better system but they have nothing to do with private or socialised medicine. This can be seen as the NHS in the UK uses the American system which led to much questioning of the apparent delay in arriving at hospital during the Diana and Dodi inquest. In fact the concensus view at the inquest was that under the British or American system Diana would not have made it to the hospital alive. Without the physician attending she would probably have died at the scene. Oh, and there are plenty of air ambulances in the UK (and I assume France) but I very much doubt they would have got Diana to a city centre hospital any quicker than an ambulance (at 1 in the morning and with police motorcycle outriders!). ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-woman-i-know-spent-two-hours-in-hospital-today-for-a-non-serious-issue-the-bill-12000/541836/87 "2010-06-10T18:18:48Z")
I’m with the Libertarians on this. I say we have the best healthcare system in the world until we see at least one other country that can demonstrate that they have a better system, with lower costs and better outcomes. - Pangloss ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-woman-i-know-spent-two-hours-in-hospital-today-for-a-non-serious-issue-the-bill-12000/541836/88 "2010-06-10T20:48:00Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > I’m with the Libertarians on this. I say we have the best healthcare system in the world until we see at least one other country that can demonstrate that they have a better system, with lower costs and better outcomes. > > - Pangloss This is veering into GD territory, and I generally avoid going there due to the fact that I suck at debating and don’t really care to get into things that deeply, but… how do you define “best” and “better system/outcomes”? Lower costs are easy: the per capita expenditure from governments on health care in countries with UHC is significantly lower than that of the US, even though it covers care for 100% of the population rather than just part of it. Out-of-pocket or point-of-service costs for the patients are also much lower, and usually free in most cases. Better outcomes: [Infant mortality rates?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate) Countries with UHC are better than the US system. [Life expectancy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy)? Same thing. Cancer treatments? It’s my understanding (though I don’t have a cite…I think I got this from my friend, a haematology nurse) that UHC allows for earlier detection and therefore earlier treatment and a better chance of remission since more people get regular medical checkups. I’m not sure what types of treatments the average American can receive that I can’t get in Canada, or others can’t get in other countries with UHC. There are probably stories of rare cases/rare illnesses where the treatment was available only at a specialized research hospital in the States or something (that kid, Maddox? cases like that), but I don’t think that’s a good measure of an entire health care system, since they are very rare occurrences and it’s probably not a surprise that only a few doctors have the knowledge or expertise to treat them. I think the measure of a healthcare system is what the average user has access to (and I know there is no average disease or injury, but consider then what most people in the country have access to if they need it). So perhaps best refers to wait times? Sure, we (and other UHC countries) have a serious problem with that, especially for non-emergency treatment. But sooner or later, the patient does get seen, which IMHO is better than not being able to get treated because they can’t afford it. I really don’t think our system is perfect…there are too many mistakes, delays and horror stories to believe that. But I do think the basic idea is right, and I just don’t understand what’s considered to be so good about the US system _for most of the US population._ ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-woman-i-know-spent-two-hours-in-hospital-today-for-a-non-serious-issue-the-bill-12000/541836/89 "2010-06-10T21:55:15Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > Yes, it does, you are also paying for staff vacation time… When your kid turns out to have a life threatening congenital heart condition that manifests one night at 11pm they have someone available to fix it that night, or at least has the ability to sustain your child until one is called in. EVERY business does this to some degree or another usually lumped into base rates. CT scanners are tools a hospital is expected to have on hand in the event they are needed. They don’t wait for someone to need one to buy one. > > You are paying for availability, don’t like emergency prices, don’t use emergency services. Anyone ever try to get a plumber at 3am, invariably there are some available at 2-3 times the normal going rate for such things. You need it now, you pay a premium, because they had to spend extra money to staff and equip the facility you are using at the time of your need. Are you honestly comparing an immediate need for emergency care to calling a plumber? Of course I’m going to pay more for calling my plumber for an emergency. But, if I don’t get it fixed right away, my LIFE isn’t in danger. “Don’t use emergency services.” So basically, don’t get sick. Wonderful. Come back when kids aren’t [dying from toothaches](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/27/AR2007022702116.html). ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-woman-i-know-spent-two-hours-in-hospital-today-for-a-non-serious-issue-the-bill-12000/541836/90 "2010-06-10T22:12:14Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > This is veering into GD territory, and I generally avoid going there due to the fact that I suck at debating and don’t really care to get into things that deeply, but… how do you define “best” and “better system/outcomes”? \* I’m sorry, I was making fun of Libertarians. I thought it was clear I was being sarcastic. The US is the only industrialist country in the world without UHC, we have the highest costs, and the worse results. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-woman-i-know-spent-two-hours-in-hospital-today-for-a-non-serious-issue-the-bill-12000/541836/91 "2010-06-10T22:28:08Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > I’m sorry, I was making fun of Libertarians. I thought it was clear I was being sarcastic. The US is the only industrialist country in the world without UHC, we have the highest costs, and the worse results. My sarcasm meter must be off today! :smack: But then again, I have heard stuff like that during the recent health care debates (heck, someone came up with the idea of governmental Death Panels, and other people believe it!) so I just wasn’t sure. I’m going to blame it on painkillers that were prescribed by my free doctor after my free hospital stay and follow up visits requiring a free MRI…cheap shot? yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-woman-i-know-spent-two-hours-in-hospital-today-for-a-non-serious-issue-the-bill-12000/541836/92 "2010-06-10T23:58:28Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > Free- maybe not entirely. NO. > The German Health-Insurance Tax (Krankenkasse) is quiet expensive. > > While I used to live in Germany it was completely free, now it might be a bit different (I’m refering to the Ambulance). > > In case of emergencies (car accidents, sickness etc…) the bill for transportation is usually paid by the Krankenkasse – still, no extra bill for it, I don’t think, they would get away with it. > However, there are cases, where people do get charged, if they want it for transportation of a patient with a broken leg and a simple taxi would have done the job or if they called for it themselves. It was never free. You paid for it in your taxes, rather than as private insurance fees or at the point of service. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-woman-i-know-spent-two-hours-in-hospital-today-for-a-non-serious-issue-the-bill-12000/541836/93 "2010-06-11T16:29:36Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > Um, you’re not going to get airlifted to a hospital if you’re in a car crash in Manhattan :dubious: Or a tunnel. Of course it was a long drive to Paris from Paris. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-woman-i-know-spent-two-hours-in-hospital-today-for-a-non-serious-issue-the-bill-12000/541836/94 "2010-06-11T16:31:41Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > My sarcasm meter must be off today! :smack: > > But then again, I have heard stuff like that during the recent health care debates (heck, someone came up with the idea of governmental Death Panels, and other people believe it!) so I just wasn’t sure. > > I’m going to blame it on painkillers that were prescribed by my free doctor after my free hospital stay and follow up visits requiring a free MRI…cheap shot? yeah. No, it was my bad. As you point out, it’s hard to be ironic these days. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-woman-i-know-spent-two-hours-in-hospital-today-for-a-non-serious-issue-the-bill-12000/541836/95 "2010-06-11T16:33:55Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > It was never free. You paid for it in your taxes, rather than as private insurance fees or at the point of service. Speech isn’t free either, it was paid for with the blood of soldiers. Hah! I out flanked you on the right. Didn’t expect that, did you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-woman-i-know-spent-two-hours-in-hospital-today-for-a-non-serious-issue-the-bill-12000/541836.md?page=4)