# A word for "an unsolvable problem"/"lose-lose situation"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 7, 2003, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-word-for-an-unsolvable-problem-lose-lose-situation/153379 "2003-02-07T03:26:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecd19e/32.png) [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-word-for-an-unsolvable-problem-lose-lose-situation/153379/21 "2003-02-07T04:35:23Z")
Just wanted to add, in case anyone’s interested: The “two horns of a bull” comes from classical battle tactics. A common tactic for an advancing army was to form yourself in the shape of the head of a bull. The main army would be in the middle and there would be two “horns” either side closing in. The idea was to entrap the enemy in the middle. The enemy couldn’t approach the “head” of the bull because that was where the main bulk of the army would be. They had to assume that one of the “horns” would be weaker than the other one and so attack that one. This was the only way to defeat the bull formation. But which horn do you attack…? ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-word-for-an-unsolvable-problem-lose-lose-situation/153379/22 "2003-02-07T04:36:07Z")
Zugswang (from chess). ---
**Author:** ![aahala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e4f/32.png) [@aahala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aahala)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-word-for-an-unsolvable-problem-lose-lose-situation/153379/23 "2003-02-07T04:36:18Z")
Somewhat along these lines is what is called a Hobson’s choice. Thomas Hobson was supposed to be the origin of this idea. He kept a livery stable in England and had each customer choose the horse, but it had to be the one closest to the door. ---
**Author:** ![Jojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecd19e/32.png) [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-word-for-an-unsolvable-problem-lose-lose-situation/153379/24 "2003-02-07T04:48:33Z")
Achenar, you’re right that _lemma_ means “proposition”. But when you translate any word from a foreign language you run into difficulties. Even in English, the word “proposition” can be given a hundred different nuances. This _particular_ Greek slant on the word “proposition” means horns of a bull. Honest, if you don’t believe me, check the OED. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-word-for-an-unsolvable-problem-lose-lose-situation/153379/25 "2003-02-07T04:52:04Z")
You guys have catch-22 all wrong; it’s not a choice between contradictory alternatives, or equally undesirable alternatives. It’s a catch, one that turns a course of action against itself. The original: Yossarian, a military pilot, wants to quit flying missions; the only way to do this is to prove he’s unfit - i.e., crazy. He can’t prove he’s crazy however, because wanting to quit flying missions proves he’s sane. The mere fact of applying results in the rejection of the application. It’s the second part that’s catch-22. Dilemma is probably the best word here; Achernar is correct, but I’ll expand – a dilemma is, in logic, an argument wherein a choice must be made between two equally attractive or unattractive propositions. In common parlance, it’s as close as you can get to the OP. The OP doesn’t specify which of the many lose-lose situations is being described; in addition to the dilemma, there’s “damned if you do, damned if you don’t,” for example. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-word-for-an-unsolvable-problem-lose-lose-situation/153379/26 "2003-02-07T04:54:09Z")
Another term used for this sort of situation is a “double bind.” ---
**Author:** ![SnugTheJoiner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@SnugTheJoiner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnugTheJoiner)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-word-for-an-unsolvable-problem-lose-lose-situation/153379/27 "2003-02-07T05:30:34Z")
A Gordian Knot. ---
**Author:** ![Dancing\_Fool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/59ef9b/32.png) [@Dancing\_Fool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dancing_Fool)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-word-for-an-unsolvable-problem-lose-lose-situation/153379/28 "2003-02-07T06:09:25Z")
Slang, I know, but we always called this Hobson’s choice or Devil’s Alternative ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-word-for-an-unsolvable-problem-lose-lose-situation/153379/29 "2003-02-07T07:08:14Z")
Peoplesoft® installation? ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-word-for-an-unsolvable-problem-lose-lose-situation/153379/30 "2003-02-07T08:19:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jojo \* > \*\*This _particular_ Greek slant on the word “proposition” means horns of a bull. > > Honest, if you don’t believe me, check the OED. \*\* Huh? I think you may be confused. In a dilemma (literally “two premises”), the two propositions are often called “horns”. This seems to be from the Latin synonym of dilemma, _argumentum cornutum_ (literally “horned argument”). The idea seems to be that if you don’t poke yourself on one point, you’ll poke yourself on the other. I don’t know where you get your information about battle tactics, or how you think the Greek word [symbol]lhmma[/symbol] ever meant “horn of a bull”, but there’s nothing like that in the OED that I could find. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-word-for-an-unsolvable-problem-lose-lose-situation/153379/31 "2003-02-07T09:02:03Z")
How about quandary: 1: a situation from which extrication is difficult especially an unpleasant or trying one 2: **state of uncertainty or perplexity especially as requiring a choice between equally unfavorable options.** ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-word-for-an-unsolvable-problem-lose-lose-situation/153379/32 "2003-02-07T12:06:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jojo \* > \*\*It’s not Catch-22, which is the title of a book written earlier this century… \*\* Actually, I think that was _last_ century. ---
**Author:** ![Jojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecd19e/32.png) [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-word-for-an-unsolvable-problem-lose-lose-situation/153379/33 "2003-02-08T03:55:20Z")
GuanoLad, yeah, last century, sorry. Bibliophage, If you checked the full OED then I’ll accept that. I don’t have access to the OED myself but my dictionary, Chambers, defines _dilemma_ as: > [@](#): > > a form of argument in which the maintainer of a certain proposition is committed to accept one of two propositions each of which contradicts his original intention: a position where each of two alternative courses (or of all the feasible courses) is eminently undesirable. > > **The argument was called a “horned syllogism”, and the victim compared to a man certain to be impaled on one or other of the horns of an infuriated bull** (my bolding) Although, I’m not sure where I got the battle stuff from. I seem to recall hearing it from a reliable source but I could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Sock\_Munkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Sock\_Munkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sock_Munkey)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-word-for-an-unsolvable-problem-lose-lose-situation/153379/34 "2003-02-08T09:24:04Z")
Caught between a rock and a hard place. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-word-for-an-unsolvable-problem-lose-lose-situation/153379/35 "2003-02-08T10:16:48Z")
Caught between **Scylla** and Charybdis. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-word-for-an-unsolvable-problem-lose-lose-situation/153379/36 "2003-02-26T07:27:49Z")
…I just wanted to say a much-belated “thank you!” to everyone for their help. I am in your debt. ---
**Author:** ![FranticMad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c68b51/32.png) [@FranticMad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FranticMad)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-word-for-an-unsolvable-problem-lose-lose-situation/153379/37 "2003-02-26T14:32:35Z")
I was talking with the smartest person I know on the planet (I’m not kidding, she is really up there), and was reminiscing about our time in grad school. I explained a conflict that I had with my supervisor back then, about how many circumstances made my position there impossible to work out. She said, “So basically, you were fucked.” At that moment, I knew that she understood the situation. ---
**Author:** ![missbunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/76d3ee/32.png) [@missbunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missbunny)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-word-for-an-unsolvable-problem-lose-lose-situation/153379/38 "2003-02-26T17:36:23Z")
zero-sum game? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-word-for-an-unsolvable-problem-lose-lose-situation/153379/39 "2003-02-26T17:50:34Z")
Cluster-fuck. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-word-for-an-unsolvable-problem-lose-lose-situation/153379/40 "2003-02-26T17:58:40Z")
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