# A world without Indian contributions **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 22, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-indian-contributions/579309 "2011-04-22T01:03:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-indian-contributions/579309/41 "2011-04-22T09:06:00Z")
The overall message I’ve taken from this thread is that I would really like to own a wooden bike. Seriously, does that thing actually run?? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-indian-contributions/579309/42 "2011-04-22T11:34:16Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > No rubber? No. [Rubber](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutta-percha)! Plant latexes and their use are not uniquely American discoveries. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-indian-contributions/579309/43 "2011-04-22T11:36:36Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > OK. Now that we see the case of rubber, just imagine a day without eating anything remotely related to plants cultivated and selected during centuries by Natives of the Americas. I do this all the time. It’s called"SCA Feast Cooking". ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-indian-contributions/579309/44 "2011-04-22T11:57:01Z")
There are plenty of indigenous plants that the Amerindians developed that the Old World didn’t have. They also independently developed many things that the Old World had. There are some things they didn’t develop and use, although they clearly had Means, Motive, and Opportunity, and it can be demonstrated that they were familar with the concept – wheels being one of them, and alcoholic drinks another. Why they didn’t is a fascinating topic for discussion, but i don’t want to derail it here. Regarding rubber, as others have mentioned, plant sap polymers were utilized elsewhere in the world, but American people had the advantage of having natural latex. And chicle – chewing gum is an American advantage. And it’s not a polymer, but I’d like to point out that the sugar maple was another thing the Americas had, and the Indians utilized it as a sugar source. But my reason for posting is an experience i had at Sturbridge Village, a working 19th century historical recreation. When I was in the printer’s shop, I noticed them using rollers to spread the ink. When I was a kid, I used rubber rollers for printing presses and art projects. Since i knew they were sticklers for accuracy at Sturbridge, I asked what they were using for the roller, since i doubted that rubber use for these was widespread at the time. The surprising answer was that they _didn’t_ use rubber. They used _composition_ – a mixture, I was told, of (animal hide) glue, molasses, and plaster of paris. The result was a tough, springy substance that looked and acted very much like rubber. I looked into it, and learned that the plaster wasn’t often used – I suspect it got thrown in as a binder and filler. People often used straight gelatin instead of glue (both were made by rendering down hides and hooves), and that you could substitute straight sugar for the molasses (but molasses was, I’m sure, cheaper back then than refined sugar). In fact, one amateur printer’s website talked about simply melting down an recasting _gummy bears_ to make a roller – it’s mostly gelatin and sugar already. the point is, there were Old World alternatives to rubber if you were looking for something that had give and resilience. I think a Gummy Bear roller would tend to “spread” over time, like Silly Putty left out overnight, and conscientious printers hung them up rather than resting them on the roller part (lest they develop flat spots). But something like that with a different ratio and lots of filler might be usable as a “tire” if you needed it. Certainly a “rubber” of this sort could be used in less-demanding circumstances where a rubber-like substance was called for. I’d also like to point out that, back in colonial and pioneer days, most wagon wheels wouldn’t have been covered with rubber even if it _were_ available – a smooth ride wasn’t what most people wanted. They wanted their wheels protected, and so they were often covered with metal rims – steel or iron. You were driving over unpaved country roads made of dirt, with plenty of pits and mud and no end of rocks. There was “shock absorption” in the way the bodies of coaches were attached to the frames, using leather straps and/or metal springs.Considering that they generally weren’t traveling over paved roads (or, even at the best, really flat paved roads), the extra smoothing pneumatic tires would give was negligible. I believe some wheels had leather covers over the edge, but my memory may be playing false. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-indian-contributions/579309/45 "2011-04-22T14:41:17Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Yes, but they mostly used it for toys or possibly ceremonial objects. They never put the wheel to any use in transporting goods or people, or even as a potter’s wheel. Of course, the failure to use it in transport was partly due to the lack of draft animals, but this doesn’t explain the lack of use for making pottery. And you would think that wheels could have found some limited use in human-powered transport. Why exactly the indigenous societies of the Americas failed to put wheels to more use when they clearly knew of them in principle is a bit of a mystery. Agreed. It is a mistery. In fact, perhaps the biggest technological different between Eurasia and the Americas is the lack of wheels in the later… But more than lack of wheels, it is the lack of machinery. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-indian-contributions/579309/46 "2011-04-22T14:43:41Z")
> [@Oldeb](#): > > I think my favorite part is something that **pinguin** didn’t even mention. Natural rubber is often called India rubber, _because for most commercial purposes it was grown outside of South America._ Yes, this great, mighty gift to the world was so powerful and important that… they never really managed to successfully capitalize on it in South America until well into the 20th century. By which time synthetic rubber was coming into vogue. > > It was those other Indians we have to thank for most of the commercial harvesting techniques. 😛 Nothing strange. Coffee, for instance, is African, and Colombia become known as the main exporter of this good. Also, Chocolate is associated with Switzerland, and not Mexico, and wine is associated with Chile 😃 ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-indian-contributions/579309/47 "2011-04-22T14:45:25Z")
> [@2ply](#): > > That’s more a consolation prize. The white man still won the big game. > > White People: #1 from 1492-2030! Woo! Wait some decades. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-indian-contributions/579309/48 "2011-04-22T14:47:45Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > The overall message I’ve taken from this thread is that I would really like to own a wooden bike. Seriously, does that thing actually run?? In Africa they are quite common. [http://www.bta4bikes.org/btablog/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/btrwoodenbike.JPG](http://www.bta4bikes.org/btablog/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/btrwoodenbike.JPG) ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-indian-contributions/579309/49 "2011-04-22T14:53:57Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > There are plenty of indigenous plants that the Amerindians developed that the Old World didn’t have. They also independently developed many things that the Old World had. There are some things they didn’t develop and use, although they clearly had Means, Motive, and Opportunity, and it can be demonstrated that they were familar with the concept – wheels being one of them, and alcoholic drinks another. Why they didn’t is a fascinating topic for discussion, but i don’t want to derail it here.. Indeed. That is a topic that fascinates me as well. The parallel inventions in Eurasia and in the New World is a fascinating topic. Paper, the zero, metalurgy, hunging bridges, writing, the golden rate, sails, inflatable boats and thousand of other inventions were invented in both areas in absolute isolation from each other. Amazing ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-indian-contributions/579309/50 "2011-04-22T14:54:03Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > In Africa they are quite common. > > [http://www.bta4bikes.org/btablog/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/btrwoodenbike.JPG](http://www.bta4bikes.org/btablog/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/btrwoodenbike.JPG) I dont see how you could ever ride a wooden bike in Jungle Africa. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-indian-contributions/579309/51 "2011-04-22T14:54:51Z")
> [@](#): > > The overall message I’ve taken from this thread is that I would really like to own a wooden bike. Seriously, does that thing actually run?? most of the first bicycles ever built – _velocipes_ and _curricles_ – were wooden. They also got the nickname “boneshakers”, because of the effect of riding these over streets paved with cobblestones. If you rode one in the city, you _did_ need pneumatic tires (I’ve never seen a bicycle that depended mainly o n some sort of shock absorber rather than pneumatic tires to smooth the ride. even if they had a shock absorber on the front wheel, they didn’t on the back) I didn’t realize they were still used in Africa. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-indian-contributions/579309/52 "2011-04-22T16:04:48Z")
[Bamboo bicycles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamboo_bicycle) actually look practical. One can be had for $500 in the Philippines- don’t know what they cost elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![carlotta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/898d66/32.png) [@carlotta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carlotta)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-indian-contributions/579309/53 "2011-04-22T17:58:06Z")
A world without Indian contributions would be bleak for me indeed as it would be lacking my husband and children. And more importantly chocolate. (They never read this message board) ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-indian-contributions/579309/54 "2011-04-22T21:25:22Z")
But Europeans invented powered travel (steam engine). ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-indian-contributions/579309/55 "2011-04-22T23:00:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Or pajamas. Think of the effect on the flannel industry! Or learning how to do algebra in Roman numerals. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-indian-contributions/579309/56 "2011-04-22T23:05:43Z")
I get through the whole thread, and still I’m thinking “So fucking what?” Whoopee, some indigs somewhere invented something. Sorta. That everybody else uses. What is your freaking **point**? We should all bow down to the mighty whatevers? Screw them. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-indian-contributions/579309/57 "2011-04-23T01:34:59Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > I get through the whole thread, and still I’m thinking “So fucking what?” Whoopee, some indigs somewhere invented something. Sorta. That everybody else uses. What is your freaking **point**? We should all bow down to the mighty whatevers? Screw them. If you aren’t interested, just go away from this thread. As easy as that. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-indian-contributions/579309/58 "2011-04-23T01:40:01Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > But Europeans invented powered travel (steam engine). And Chinese invented gunpowder, and East Indians the modern numerals, the Arabs algebra, the Inuits the kayak and the Polynesians the catamaran. What’s the point? Everybody knows what Europeans invented from the 14th to the 20th century. Good for them, but it was the less they could do, given Northern Europe was an uncivilized region for thousand of years, while the Mediterranean, Middle East, India and China lead the world. This same world expected those primitive people of northern Europe invented something at last, and they did. Europe had its days of glory, and now that passed. So what? Let’s go back to the topic ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-indian-contributions/579309/59 "2011-04-23T01:43:06Z")
> [@carlotta](#): > > And more importantly chocolate. Ah, Chocolate!! How would be the world be without chocolate, strawberries, vanillas, pineapples, rootbeer, popcorn, peanuts, and the thousands of other American products, that brought flavour to the whole planet? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-indian-contributions/579309/60 "2011-04-23T01:44:15Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > And Chinese invented gunpowder, and East Indians the modern numerals, the Arabs algebra, the Inuits the kayak and the Polynesians the catamaran. > > What’s the point? > > Everybody knows what Europeans invented from the 14th to the 20th century. Good for them, but it was the less they could do, given Northern Europe was an uncivilized region for thousand of years, while the Mediterranean, Middle East, India and China lead the world. This same world expected those primitive people of northern Europe invented something at last, and they did. Europe had its days of glory, and now that passed. So what? > > Let’s go back to the topic Excellent idea! WTF is the topic of this thread? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-indian-contributions/579309.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-indian-contributions/579309.md?page=4)