# A World Without Religion, Better or Worse **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488 "2011-05-19T19:19:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mac9891](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f4b2a3/32.png) [@mac9891](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac9891)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/1 "2011-05-19T19:19:26Z")
I’ve been wondering has religion brought good things to humanity or has it just brought more reasons separate people from one an other? For this debate lets assume that the 1. atheists have it right and there is no God(this is hypothetical not my chosen view) and 2. The humans of this hypothetical world do no believe in any god or gods. Would this world be a better place? Would we still have all the “good” values today that many religions sake claim too? And would there be less fighting amongst nations if that difference was erased? Your thoughts ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/2 "2011-05-19T19:21:57Z")
Much better. Infinitely better. Values don’t come from religion; they come from intrinsic human nature. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/4 "2011-05-19T19:29:19Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Much better. Infinitely better. > > Values don’t come from religion; they come from intrinsic human nature. Nailed it in one. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/5 "2011-05-19T19:32:43Z")
Better, but not perfect. Religion-like ideologies and obsessions will still pop up, like some future variant on communism or celebrity cult-worship. Then tendency for humans to submit to group conformity and insist on it in others is simply too great and, I assume, an evolutionary psychology holdover that made organized religion (and societies in general) possible in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![lazybratsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ba8739/32.png) [@lazybratsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lazybratsche)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/6 "2011-05-19T19:41:53Z")
Honestly I’d think it’d end up just about the same. Without religion people would still invent irrational ideologies to follow. People would still give their allegiance to various arbitrarily defined groups. They’d still be willing to fight or die for a cause if the conditions are right. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/7 "2011-05-19T19:51:37Z")
Well, I’d assume at the very least that opposition to science and technology would fade, in the sense that “there are things man was not meant to know” would not exist as an impediment to astronomy in Galileo’s time or stem-cell research in ours. The net effect of this is hard to say, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/8 "2011-05-19T19:57:32Z")
What does “without religion” mean? As I understand it, many ancient societies didn’t have “religion” as such, as a separate category. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/9 "2011-05-19T20:01:49Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, I’d assume at the very least that opposition to science and technology would fade, in the sense that “there are things man was not meant to know” would not exist as an impediment to astronomy in Galileo’s time or stem-cell research in ours. This is hardly a safe assumption, it seems to me. In this, as in so many other things, it’s hard to tell what to blame on religion per se, and what to blame on human nature or human tendencies that happen to have expressed themselves through religious channels, and which would still be in full force without religion as such. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/10 "2011-05-19T20:05:54Z")
At best, a wash, likely worse. First, I think a number of things that get blamed on religion are probably best blamed on organized religion and not religion itself, and thus are largely due to the nature of any such things risen to that level of organization, which results in corruption and greed. Second, of those things that aren’t due to organized religion, they’re still usually due to human nature in some form and religion is used as justification. But most importantly, religion does serve several useful purposes. Part of the problem with this sort of question is that even if we take that there is no god as a given, it doesn’t eliminate religion at all, because there are more than a few religions that don’t posit the existence of a god. At its core, religion is just a subset of philosophies that usually include things like moral behavior, purpose, and usually include belief systems and mythologies, etc. At best, you would eliminate the rituals and mythologies, but you would still have disagreements about other aspects as you do with any philosophy that attempts to define morality and purpose and such. More likely, you’d still have people using those philosophies to commit atrocities just as plenty of non-religious philosophies have been used as justifications. So, you’d likely gain little or nothing, because human nature would still be human nature, but you’d lose the other less tangible aspects that religion brings along, particularly in the way of the arts and community. There are enormous bodies of work that are wholly or partially inspired by religions, and without religion, who knows what might have happened. And while, even as a theist myself, I’m generally against most rites, I think religious gathers focused on learning and studying those philosophical concepts and regular prayer/meditation are ultimately beneficial to all involved and their communities. Either way, the idea that eliminating religion would somehow remove irrationalities and all is just silly. Sure, there are bigots that use religion as justification for their actions, but that’s like saying if the political party you’re opposed to and think are evil assholes dissolved, that somehow those ideas that formed it would vanish with it. If religion never existed, we’d still have racists, homophobes, and any number of other ideas, they would just find other reasons. In fact, the most bigotted person I’ve met was an atheist. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/11 "2011-05-19T20:13:08Z")
> [@mac9891](#): > > Would this world be a better place? Yes, simply by virtue of not having religion in it. > [@](#): > > Would we still have all the “good” values today that many religions sake claim too? Yes. And not so much of the bad stuff like stupid sexual hangups. > [@](#): > > And would there be less fighting amongst nations if that difference was erased? Yes. Not all that much less, but probably measurably so. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/12 "2011-05-19T20:16:31Z")
Religion is likely a net drag on our society. For instance, my in-laws are in a loveless marriage because they are Catholic. If no religion existed, they likely would have separated. Of course there would still be wars, poverty and other bad things. But many people specifically have their misery increased by religion, so I don’t think it’s a stretch to suggest that the overall amount of misery would be less, but still well above zero. It is, in my opinion, best to deal with reality, so the delusional lies that religion states as reality would be removed from the equation. People make stupid, self-destructive decisions because of religion. Getting pregnant and keeping babies they can’t afford or don’t want, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/13 "2011-05-19T20:18:27Z")
It would be much better. It would remove a major cause of the evil in the world, remove a major impediment to progress, and remove a major source of irrationality. > [@lazybratsche](#): > > Honestly I’d think it’d end up just about the same. Without religion people would still invent irrational ideologies to follow. People would still give their allegiance to various arbitrarily defined groups. They’d still be willing to fight or die for a cause if the conditions are right. > [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > At best, a wash, likely worse. First, I think a number of things that get blamed on religion are probably best blamed on organized religion and not religion itself, and thus are largely due to the nature of any such things risen to that level of organization, which results in corruption and greed. Second, of those things that aren’t due to organized religion, they’re still usually due to human nature in some form and religion is used as justification. But most importantly, religion does serve several useful purposes. > > \ > > So, you’d likely gain little or nothing, because human nature would still be human nature, but you’d lose the other less tangible aspects that religion brings along, particularly in the way of the arts and community. There are enormous bodies of work that are wholly or partially inspired by religions, and without religion, who knows what might have happened. And while, even as a theist myself, I’m generally against most rites, I think religious gathers focused on learning and studying those philosophical concepts and regular prayer/meditation are ultimately beneficial to all involved and their communities. > Either way, the idea that eliminating religion would somehow remove irrationalities and all is just silly. Sure, there are bigots that use religion as justification for their actions, but that’s like saying if the political party you’re opposed to and think are evil assholes dissolved, that somehow those ideas that formed it would vanish with it. If religion never existed, we’d still have racists, homophobes, and any number of other ideas, they would just find other reasons. In other words the standard attempt to excuse religion by demonizing humanity. Everything bad that happens in the name of religion isn’t the fault of religion, it’s because humans are monsters. People aren’t bad because their religion tells them to be bad; they are compulsively evil. Just another example of how fundamentally hostile to humanity religion is. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/14 "2011-05-19T20:21:15Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > In other words the standard attempt to excuse religion by demonizing humanity. Everything bad that happens in the name of religion isn’t the fault of religion, it’s because humans are monsters. People aren’t bad because their religion tells them to be bad; they are compulsively evil. Where do you think religion comes from? ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/15 "2011-05-19T20:23:53Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Values don’t come from religion; they come from intrinsic human nature. I agree with this 100%. **However** … let’s not get too starry-eyed about a world free of religion. A world free of religion would still be full of stupid. People wouldn’t persecute and kill each other over superstitions any more, but that’d just give them more free time to persecute and kill each other over _other_ meaningless bullshit like race, nationality, politics, economics, conspiracy theories, sport, or some _new_ horror that people will invent to replace religion. Get rid of peoples’ need to belong to a tribe and to hate all the people who belong to different tribes, _then_ we’ll make progress. Religion isn’t a cause, it’s a pretext. Take it away and haters will just find another pretext to hate people. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/16 "2011-05-19T20:25:42Z")
The world would be better. If I could end all religion now, would I? Let’s say I get my hands on real evidence that disproves all of it, and it’s easy enough to understand without being a scientist. If I revealed that evidence, would it be good? Maybe after all the mass suicides and looting end. But that’s the thing. Humans need time to adjust to facts as much as they need time to adjust to something unreal or supernatural. Change takes time-- a VERY long time for us. To end religion, we need to look at all of the aspects of it and realize that we don’t need a god in the first place. All the charity we do, we don’t need a god for. All of the healing we do through prayer is really just our own selves adjusting to a change. But even if we had the proof we needed and some poor homeless person who just kicked alcohol through A.A. hears, “Hey, good news! There really is no god! It’s all up to us!” Now, do you really think that would be good news for this particular individual? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/17 "2011-05-19T20:29:30Z")
That depends. What species are we assuming inhabits this world instead of humans? Like it or not, right or wrong, but religion is an inherent part of human nature. If you have humans, you’re going to have religion. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/18 "2011-05-19T20:30:05Z")
Getting rid of religion would at least remove indoctrination from birth. There will still be people who will believe in irrational superstitions, but at least they’ll be free to come to those conclusions themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/19 "2011-05-19T20:31:09Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Where do you think religion comes from? History, and selective breeding. It’s been around a while. And millennia of systematically killing anyone insufficiently pious means that humans have been selectively bred for a specific type of irrationality, namely religion. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/20 "2011-05-19T20:31:29Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > This is hardly a safe assumption And yet I’ll make it anyway, since I live life on the edge. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/21 "2011-05-19T20:37:19Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > In other words the standard attempt to excuse religion by demonizing humanity. Everything bad that happens in the name of religion isn’t the fault of religion, it’s because humans are monsters. People aren’t bad because their religion tells them to be bad; they are compulsively evil. You think there aren’t any evil people in the world that aren’t motivated by religion? You think there can’t be an evil atheist? I’m an atheist, but I’m also a realist. While there are plenty of kind and compassionate people in the world, there are also plenty of evil shits. I’m certainly not trying to “excuse religion”, I just don’t believe that getting rid of one pretext for people to do evil would have any real effect on the net total of evil in the world. Those who are inclined towards evil will find a pretext, or invent one. Getting rid of religion might be a good _first step_ towards freeing the world from evil, but by itself it wouldn’t achieve anything. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488.md?page=2)