# A World Without Religion, Better or Worse **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488 "2011-05-19T19:19:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/42 "2011-05-20T17:01:51Z")
> [@lazybratsche](#): > > Honestly I’d think it’d end up just about the same. Without religion people would still invent irrational ideologies to follow. People would still give their allegiance to various arbitrarily defined groups. They’d still be willing to fight or die for a cause if the conditions are right. > [@Chronos](#): > > That depends. What species are we assuming inhabits this world instead of humans? Like it or not, right or wrong, but religion is an inherent part of human nature. If you have humans, you’re going to have religion. A world without religion would be exactly the same as this one, except for the lack of GD threads with the word ‘religion’ in them. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/43 "2011-05-20T17:10:53Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > If religions were not so competitive, we could tolerate them better. They are corporate in their desire to get bigger and richer. They go to war with each other. I agree. There didn’t seem to be wars between polytheistic religions. Alexander the Great added any gods he found to his list, and the Romans didn’t care so long as the emperor was well treated. But I think monotheistic religions which put a big premium on destroying rivals and conversion will always grow at the expense of those which practice live and let live (an awful marketing strategy.) When two of these collide, then you get war. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/44 "2011-05-20T18:17:27Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Sure - by law. > > I guess if you wanted to answer the OP’s q, you could look at the old Communist Russia. Funny how the believers always want to hold up the USSR as an example and never the non-Communist countries that have nearly given up religion. And how they are always at a loss when pressed for examples of the evils of atheism without bringing up Communism. Why, it’s almost like the problem is Communism, not atheism! ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/45 "2011-05-20T18:24:08Z")
As it is, religion is a fundamental consequence of human imagination. I think that if there were no religion, human nature would have to be so utterly different from the way it actually is that it’s impossible to say what the ramifications would be. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/46 "2011-05-20T18:26:32Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Funny how the believers always want to hold up the USSR as an example and never the non-Communist countries that have nearly given up religion. And how they are always at a loss when pressed for examples of the evils of atheism without bringing up Communism. Why, it’s almost like the problem is Communism, not atheism! To my mind “the problem” is what things like Communism and Organized Religion tend, historically, to have in common - like unquestioning belief melded to a rigid hierarchy. Obviously, atheism itself - a mere lack of belief in gods - doesn’t and cannot somehow “cause” that. It doesn’t inoculate against it, either. A lack of belief in gods does not translate into a lack of belief in political systems, tribes or nationalities. I recommend Eric Hoffer’s book _The True Believer_ on this score. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/47 "2011-05-20T19:12:41Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Funny how the believers always want to hold up the USSR as an example and never the non-Communist countries that have nearly given up religion. And how they are always at a loss when pressed for examples of the evils of atheism without bringing up Communism. Why, it’s almost like the problem is Communism, not atheism! Translation: It isn’t the fault of atheism when people do bad things, even when the alternate belief system in question specifically tells them to do so. Atheism is unique among belief systems in that it only affects human behavior when that effect is a good one; all bad behavior is the fault of the innate evil of humanity, not the perfect goodness of atheism. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/48 "2011-05-20T19:23:20Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Translation: It isn’t the fault of atheism when people do bad things, even when the alternate belief system in question specifically tells them to do so. Atheism is unique among belief systems in that it only affects human behavior when that effect is a good one; all bad behavior is the fault of the innate evil of humanity, not the perfect goodness of atheism. Fail. Atheism isn’t a belief system. In fact, it isn’t _any_ kind of system. No one here has claimed that Atheism is “perfect goodness”, so that part fails, too. Do you even know what Atheism _is_? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/49 "2011-05-20T19:28:12Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > To my mind “the problem” is what things like Communism and Organized Religion tend, historically, to have in common - like unquestioning belief melded to a rigid hierarchy. > > Obviously, atheism itself - a mere lack of belief in gods - doesn’t and cannot somehow “cause” that. It doesn’t inoculate against it, either. A lack of belief in gods does not translate into a lack of belief in political systems, tribes or nationalities. True, but it does tend to limit the ultimate authority to humans which can be questioned, or even overthrown, something which is next to impossible when the ultimate authority is a god. In short, the lack of religion could close the gap between the top and the bottom quite a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/50 "2011-05-20T19:39:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > True, but it does tend to limit the ultimate authority to humans which can be questioned, or even overthrown, something which is next to impossible when the ultimate authority is a god. In short, the lack of religion could close the gap between the top and the bottom quite a bit. Historically, questioning one’s allegience to a particular political creed, nationality, social class or tribe has often lead to just as unfortunate results for the questioner as questioning one’s religion. The person doing the persecution always resorts to something larger and outside of him or herself, made an unquestionable diety out of class, race, country or tribe (unless, like Mao, Stalin or Hitler, he has in effect elevated himself into the status of a god). In the eyes of the persecutors, the questioner isn’t simply questioning Hitler, status human, or Stalin, status human - he or she is questioning allegiance to the Aryan Race, or Communism. Just like to the medieval Inquisition a person questioning Catholicism isn’t questioning only the Pope, status human - he or she is questioning God himself. Of course, all of these things - the Aryan Race, Communism, God - are human constructs, created and interpreted by humans. That hasn’t stopped anyone from killing or being killed in their names. All have, at one time or another, demanded absolute and unquestioning loyalty (through all too human leaders, natch!). This is true, even assuming that something like a “true” Aryan Race, “actual” Communism, and a “real” God exist. They never speak for themselves, always through “interpreters”. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488/51 "2011-05-21T02:19:00Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Funny how the believers always want to hold up the USSR as an example and never the non-Communist countries that have nearly given up religion. And how they are always at a loss when pressed for examples of the evils of atheism without bringing up Communism. Why, it’s almost like the problem is Communism, not atheism! I am not a believer, but he was talking about moral scruples the law regulates. (“Murder is natural, but it’s not rampant” is a bad argument because we have laws _against_ murder and violence.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-world-without-religion-better-or-worse/582488.md?page=2)