# A123.. another social engineering project gone wrong \[gov't investment in lithium ion battery maker\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 16, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912 "2012-10-16T18:51:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/41 "2012-10-17T00:14:47Z")
The military spends billions upon billions of dollars on science and engineering projects that are failures, and even if some of these programs had been successes, would probably contribute very little to the betterment of the country. We spent $3 billion to design a new helicopter for the president that will never, ever be used. Spending a couple billion dollars on science and engineering projects that could have a substantial impact on big issues like energy independence and reducing our dependence on oil is a great thing to do. Even if some of the investments don’t pan out, it only takes one or two of these big impact programs to be successful to make it all worth it. If some people are too afraid to try to make big decisions like this and roll the dice, then I have one thing to say: lead, follow, or get out of the way. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/42 "2012-10-17T00:18:24Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > T > > Spending a couple billion dollars on science and engineering projects that could have a substantial impact on big issues like energy independence and reducing our dependence on oil is a great thing to do. Even if some of the investments don’t pan out, it only takes one or two of these big impact programs to be successful to make it all worth it. But but but… Socialism! ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/43 "2012-10-17T00:29:02Z")
> [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](#): > > Not much comments about A123. > > It’d be interesting if the effort to critique my thread title, posting of videos so that you could see Obama’s own words, and making up positions for me I have not taken were applied to A123. > > No biggie. I know where I am. > > A few people on here, a minority, will appreciate the info. > > Cheers. And with that, **A nice guy with an opinion** swept his flowing locks over his shoulder and flounced away in a huff. But… He vowed to return one day, just as soon as he’d re-armed himself with more “_appalling revelations_” from the oracle known only to the brave and the chosen few as… _FoxNews_… da da duuuummmmm! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/44 "2012-10-17T00:30:19Z")
Hey, if it’s not government spending on weapons companies to find better ways to kill furriners, it’s COMMUNISM! ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/45 "2012-10-17T00:30:24Z")
Saying that because some gov. funding of projects sees the projects goes bankrupt, therefore we should leave everything to the private sector is no different than a communist saying that because some of the investments that venture capitalists make go bankrupt we should nationalize all venture capital firms. It isn’t one or the other, and the occasional failures of venture capitalist firms is not a good justification for communism. Besides, China invests heavily in their renewable energy sector (including subsidized loans) and the US can’t compete w/o doing the same. Plus since renewable energy, like IT is a rapidly growing and expanding field some companies will do amazing, and a lot will fail. That is expected. ---
**Author:** ![Nazarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nazarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nazarene)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/46 "2012-10-17T00:35:01Z")
Three words. Military Industrial Complex ---
**Author:** ![A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/76d3ee/32.png) [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_nice_guy_with_an_opinion)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/47 "2012-10-17T01:14:35Z")
> [@Enkel](#): > > And with that, **A nice guy with an opinion** swept his flowing locks over his shoulder and flounced away in a huff. > > But… He vowed to return one day, just as soon as he’d re-armed himself with more “_appalling revelations_” from the oracle known only to the brave and the chosen few as… > _FoxNews_… > da da duuuummmmm! Once again…making something up and commenting on it is about as good as it gets here. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/48 "2012-10-17T02:29:36Z")
Hey, it’s better than just posting links and _not_ commenting on them. ---
**Author:** ![A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/76d3ee/32.png) [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_nice_guy_with_an_opinion)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/49 "2012-10-17T02:42:33Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Hey, it’s better than just posting links and _not_ commenting on them. Even if I had given my opinion, you all would say I was taking stuff out of context. The videos gave Obama’s words rather than my commentary. I find that more informative. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/50 "2012-10-17T03:05:54Z")
I fail to see the overall problem. The government funds private research all the time, and sometimes that research leads to dead ends. There’s nothing unique to the Obama administration about this, certainly not since World War II. ---
**Author:** ![rooostra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d07c76/32.png) [@rooostra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rooostra)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/51 "2012-10-17T05:00:16Z")
Shouldn’t you be calling A123 Pres. Bush’s pet green company since his administration first funded them in 2001 and 2003? > **[Meet the Press: Inside Takes on the Latest Stories with Chuck Todd](https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press?lite)** > > Follow Chuck Todd as he uncovers breaking news events with the experts on NBCNews.com. Find coverage on the latest in politics, news, business, and more. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/52 "2012-10-17T07:23:15Z")
> [@Nazarene](#): > > Three words. > > Military Industrial Complex You mean Military Homeland Security Industrial Congressional Complex. Not as catchy as the former, though. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/53 "2012-10-17T13:19:24Z")
> [@rooostra](#): > > Shouldn’t you be calling A123 Pres. Bush’s pet green company since his administration first funded them in 2001 and 2003? > > [Meet the Press: Inside Takes on the Latest Stories with Kristen Welker | NBC News](http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/10/16/14489314-battery-firm-bankruptcy-comes-after-bipartisan-funding-under-both-bush-and-obama?lite) He’s just continuing the right-wing tradition of criticizing Obama for things that most modern previous presidents did, implying they are unique to his administration. Other examples: 1. Obama appointing ‘czars’ 2. Obama family costing taxpayers $1.3B (Bush cost $1.6B for same period) 3. Obama bowing to foreign leaders And I’m sure there’s more. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/54 "2012-10-17T14:10:24Z")
Man, I really don’t understand this line of attack. We absolutely \*need \*to develop alternative sources of energy. It’s conceivable that some of the methods we use, and some of the companies doing the research, might not pan out. But some of them will, and we need to be the country that finds those methods. There are lame partisan attacks, and then there’s this horsecrap. When this is your best way to attack the president, that just tells me that he’s doing a good job. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/55 "2012-10-17T17:00:34Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > Man, I really don’t understand this line of attack. We absolutely \*need \*to develop alternative sources of energy. It’s conceivable that some of the methods we use, and some of the companies doing the research, might not pan out. But some of them will, and we need to be the country that finds those methods. > > There are lame partisan attacks, and then there’s this horsecrap. When this is your best way to attack the president, that just tells me that he’s doing a good job. No doubt the GOP talking point source the OP got this from frowns on science in general, not just non-oil energy research. I consider us pretty lucky that the GOP nominee is the one that doesn’t deny evolution. All the other major nominees did, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/56 "2012-10-17T17:05:51Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > I consider us pretty lucky that the GOP nominee is the one that doesn’t deny evolution. All the other major nominees did, IIRC. Errr… you do know that he’s guaranteed to be God of his own planet when he dies, right? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/57 "2012-10-17T17:08:51Z")
> [@Enkel](#): > > Errr… you do know that he’s guaranteed to be God of his own planet when he dies, right? See, he’s going to evolve into a god! ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/58 "2012-10-17T18:11:14Z")
> [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](#): > > Bain wasn’t investing anyone’s money who didn’t give it to them willingly. > > Obama was using tax payer money. I haven’t watched the YT videos but you realize that the legislation authorizing these loan guarantees came from the Dick Cheney energy bill, right? The alternative energy program was politically necessary to get the Democratic support he needed to pass the bill but it was Dick Cheney’s bill. So, ironically, if we achieve commercailly viable alternative energy anytime soon and we achieve super high mileage cars anytiem soon, we will have Dick Cheney’s ability to compromise to thank for that. Can you believe that you would ever look back at Dick Cheney and say, gee I wish Republicans were that moderate again. The program is authorized to guarantee up to $36 billion dollars. Dick Cheney gave the program $30 billion dollars, Obama gave it $6 billion more. We haven’t even used the first $30 billion yet but I guess its nice to know that the extra $6 billion is there if we can identify promising alternative energy companies. The result of that alternative energy program has been a rapid acceleration of the time horizon for solar and wind to achieve grid parity (cost about as much as coal and natural gas). The real jackpot is finding a way to power our cars without or with less gasoline. There are a lot of ideas out there and frankly MOST of them are going to fail but we only need ONE to work. > [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](#): > > I never said that either. > > I understand it is easier to just make up something to argue against though. Nothing new here. Well, then what DID you say? > [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](#): > > I would have preferred that the company made its own way. I don’t want the government to pick losers and losers. I agree, the government should be engaging in this sort of research directly. See space program, see human genome project, GPS satellite location, the internet, about a thousand military applications that have found its way into the stream of commerce. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/59 "2012-10-17T18:26:01Z")
Plus Tang! Don’t forget Tang! ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/60 "2012-10-17T18:49:33Z")
I posted [this](http://http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15598788&postcount=265) in a GD thread but it applies here more. > [@](#): > > The argument made by Democratic and GOP administrations alike has been that it is in America’s best interest to bootstrap the research, development, and early phase deployment of technologies that serve our nation’s greater good. Sometimes the focus is on energy independence, sometimes global warming, sometimes on high tech jobs and not losing a future industry to Asia. Money has been thrown, sometimes with good return by those metrics and sometimes not, at oil and gas exploration (tax cuts galore), nuclear power plants, “clean” coal, hydrogen fuel cells and infrastructure, natural gas vehicles, ethanol, biodiesel, algal-based fuels … and on and on. Have the returns on those investments been worth it? Depends on who you ask and how you value the returns but none of them have consisted of picking only winners that’s for sure (even oil exploration, which hardly needs the help it gets, drills and misses sometimes). > > (I was expecting A123 to merge with a China company actually.) Also noted in that thread - the big kahuna of EV batteries is South Korea’s LGChem. America’s Johnson Controls, which is buying A123’s automotive battery assets and contracts, is their closest competitor. The industry will see more consolidation before this is done but in terms of the return being the goal of keeping America in the game for an emerging industry and bootstrapping an emerging technology this is not a lose: Johnson Controls (also a Fed grant recipient) is now THE major American contender in the ring, and benefits mightily from the A123 intellectual property and production capacity bought on the cheap. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912.md?page=4)