# A123.. another social engineering project gone wrong \[gov't investment in lithium ion battery maker\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 16, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912 "2012-10-16T18:51:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/61 "2012-10-17T19:11:29Z")
You know, it’s like playing whack-a-mole. All of the above reasonable, cogent points will be completely ignored, and in a while a new (or sometimes even the same) poster will pop up with the same discredited complaint. Rinse and repeat each time some bogus claim like this is repeated on talk radio or FOX. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/62 "2012-10-17T21:23:28Z")
> [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](#): > > Probably too late of a story to change minds at this point. Actually just more of the same anyways. If you couldn’t see the failure earlier, you probably don’t see it now. > Anyways…One of Obama’s pet green companies flops… > > Enjoy the funny vid > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIoQcgtsHCI](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIoQcgtsHCI) How about this? I don’t care if we lose a trillion dollars, we NEED green energy because fossil fuels will hit its peak in our lifetime. Continued use of FF is also contributing to massive climate change which will kill us more handily than not having any oil. Whatever money we spend on green companies is a net positive, as it advances the science. So I want Obama to invest in more green companies. ANY green companies. I want him to give them taxpayer money by the billions with no accountability because if even one of them can revolutionize solar or wind or whatever other types of fuel we’ll be using in the future, it’ll be worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/63 "2012-10-17T21:28:17Z")
Amen, **Yog** , amen. If we dumped what we spend on advanced weapons into advanced energy imagine where we might be right now. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/64 "2012-10-17T22:10:45Z")
Fast approaching 2030s style death rays? ---
**Author:** ![A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/76d3ee/32.png) [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_nice_guy_with_an_opinion)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/65 "2012-10-18T02:27:14Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > How about this? I don’t care if we lose a trillion dollars, we NEED green energy because fossil fuels will hit its peak in our lifetime. Continued use of FF is also contributing to massive climate change which will kill us more handily than not having any oil. > > Whatever money we spend on green companies is a net positive, as it advances the science. > > So I want Obama to invest in more green companies. ANY green companies. I want him to give them taxpayer money by the billions with no accountability because if even one of them can revolutionize solar or wind or whatever other types of fuel we’ll be using in the future, it’ll be worth it. When you say “we”… Sorry. If you want to invest in “green”, go ahead. I would never stop you. Just don’t make me. I’d rather make money. When Green wins, you’ll win big too. Maybe I’ll invest when I think I’ll get a return. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/66 "2012-10-18T02:29:12Z")
Got grandkids? Like 'em? ---
**Author:** ![rooostra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d07c76/32.png) [@rooostra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rooostra)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/67 "2012-10-18T03:09:41Z")
I’m curious about whether you are going to address the fact that this is a Republican program. > [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](#): > > When you say “we”… > Sorry. If you want to invest in “green”, go ahead. I would never stop you. Just don’t make me. > > I’d rather make money. > When Green wins, you’ll win big too. > > Maybe I’ll invest when I think I’ll get a return. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/68 "2012-10-18T05:56:51Z")
> [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](#): > > When you say “we”… > Sorry. If you want to invest in “green”, go ahead. I would never stop you. Just don’t make me. > > I’d rather make money. > When Green wins, you’ll win big too. > > Maybe I’ll invest when I think I’ll get a return. No, I’m going to make you do it too. Because you don’t get to live by one set of facts and laws by yourself and only profit when you can breath clean air and drink non-toxic water. We’re all in this, that’s what you fail to see. And when green energy becomes a reality, you’ll be happier and profit too, unless you are in the funeral industry. In the meantime, you are going to have to use some of that tax money to fund green jobs and green industries. Just accept it ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/69 "2012-10-18T11:33:20Z")
> [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](#): > > When you say “we”… > Sorry. If you want to invest in “green”, go ahead. I would never stop you. Just don’t make me. > > I’d rather make money. I don’t want to invest in drones, planes, bombs, or ships. Just don’t make me. I don’t want to invest in roads or bridges or airports or ports. Just don’t make me. I don’t want to invest in more law enforcement officers or judges or prisons. Just don’t make me. You live in a society. You don’t get a line-item veto on how your money is spent. Get over it or get yourself another country. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/70 "2012-10-18T20:09:02Z")
> [@rooostra](#): > > I’m curious about whether you are going to address the fact that this is a Republican program. I think we have an answer on that. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/71 "2012-10-19T04:38:58Z")
All of this “Green Energy” stuff was predicated upon “Cap and Trade” being passed by Congress. The idea was to artificially increase the price of energy to American business and consumers. At gasoline prices of \>$7.00/gallon, electric cars would make sense. Of course, the carbon credits market would also make guys like Al Gore enormously rich, while impoverishing ordinary Americans. It would also exacerbate the movement of jobs to India and China (two places that will never sign up for carbon credits). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/72 "2012-10-19T06:00:07Z")
How in the hell is the carbon credits market going to make Al Gore rich? Does he get a cut? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/73 "2012-10-19T06:12:18Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > All of this “Green Energy” stuff was predicated upon “Cap and Trade” being passed by Congress. The idea was to artificially increase the price of energy to American business and consumers. At gasoline prices of \>$7.00/gallon, electric cars would make sense. > Of course, the carbon credits market would also make guys like Al Gore enormously rich, while impoverishing ordinary Americans. It would also exacerbate the movement of jobs to India and China (two places that will never sign up for carbon credits). If all this is true, why did GWB support A123? ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/74 "2012-10-19T06:27:06Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > How in the hell is the carbon credits market going to make Al Gore rich? Does he get a cut? Actually, when they pass it, there are quite a few electric companies and steel mills who will make a lot off of the deal. They’d worked out major credit allowances that I’m sure they’ll end up selling to other manufacturing plants. I don’t think Al Gore farts quite enough to qualify for any grants, so he’d have to be investing in exchanges (e.g. right now they already sell/trade clean energy credits and I think they were somehow going to be tied in to the carbon credits.) I wish I could find out how much clean energy credits are worth. Our power company is doing an Energy Star program and is paying $50 for old appliances so long as you sign your energy credits (from recycling the old appliance) over to them. Cap and trade is nothing new. They already control emission from plants into water ways. Go stand on a bridge over a major river with trade upstream around 2am, you’ll see all those plants taking advantage of their pollution credits as it goes floating down the river in a frothy, chunky gooey mess. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/75 "2012-10-19T06:32:27Z")
River enhancement. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/76 "2012-10-19T06:49:01Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > It would also exacerbate the movement of jobs to India and China (two places that will never sign up for carbon credits). Both India and China have signed and ratified the Kyoto Protocol in 2002. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/77 "2012-10-19T20:47:21Z")
> [@](#): > > All of this “Green Energy” stuff was predicated upon “Cap and Trade” being passed by Congress. The idea was to artificially increase the price of energy to American business and consumers. No, the idea was to _stop_ artificially _decreasing_ the price of energy, by making it subject to free-market forces. Why do you hate the free market? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/78 "2012-10-19T21:23:13Z")
Yes yes, the Government should NEVER fund new technologies. Everyone knows that the Invisible Hand of the Free Market creates them from whole cloth and provides the funding when such things are needed! ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/79 "2012-10-19T21:53:09Z")
Meanwhile [the Chinese suitor is not giving up](http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE89H1P920121018?irpc=932)so easily. > [@](#): > > A lawyer for Chinese auto parts maker Wanxiang Group Corp said on Thursday it plans to make a superior bid for the battery business of A123 Systems than what a U.S. company has offered. > > Wanxiang intends to bid at the auction for A123, which filed for bankruptcy earlier this week, Bojan Guzina said at a court hearing in Delaware. The Chinese company also plans to fight Johnson Controls Inc (JCI.N) for the role of initial bidder for A123, the attorney said. … > > … Wanxiang must receive approval from the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States and the government of China to acquire A123. The Chinese company will submit its proposals next week, Guzina said. > > The A123 bankruptcy has quickly became politicized with less than four weeks before the U.S. presidential election. Republican candidate Mitt Romney said the government grant awarded to A123 was an example of the Obama administration “gambling away billions of taxpayer dollars.” > > The White House has allotted about $90 billion for various clean-energy programs as part of its economic stimulus plans. > > Obama campaign spokesman Adam Fletcher said this week that the investments helped to more than double renewable energy production from wind and solar, “creating good-paying jobs and bringing manufacturing back to our shores.” > > Wanxiang arrived in court armed with its own proposed bankruptcy loan, known as a debtor-in-possession (DIP) loan, to counter the financing Johnson Controls arranged with A123. Carey approved on an interim basis the Johnson Controls loan after concessions were made to bring it in line with Wanxiang’s proposal. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/80 "2012-10-20T00:31:54Z")
> [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](#): > > I know youtube is scary. Tread carefully. What was the point of this snark? No, YouTube is not scary, but it is 99.7 % dreck and 100% slower than reading text, so, yes, most of us are reluctant to view a video without some indication it will be worth our time. You know, you don’t win any converts - or even raise any questions - by implying your audience is too stupid or … what? stodgy? … to evaluated the evidence you will not make the effort to summarize. There are means of communication beyond posting a link. If you would explore them, and present a nonpartisan argument, people might consider your position that government should not invest in infrastructure. They would still disagree, but they might consider it. > [@Jas09](#): > > I personally blame the socialist policies of the previous administration for giving them grant money in 2006 and 2008. > [@rooostra](#): > > Shouldn’t you be calling A123 Pres. Bush’s pet green company since his administration first funded them in 2001 and 2003? > > [Meet the Press: Inside Takes on the Latest Stories with Kristen Welker | NBC News](http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/10/16/14489314-battery-firm-bankruptcy-comes-after-bipartisan-funding-under-both-bush-and-obama?lite) > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I haven’t watched the YT videos but you realize that the legislation authorizing these loan guarantees came from the Dick Cheney energy bill, right? Does any one has a link to contemporaneous objective evidence of this/these statements? (Like a WH press release, congressional budget bill, …?) I’d really like to be able to say, “Didn’t you read S. 5720 from 2002? Section IV or V, I think …” in my next argument. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912.md?page=5)